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For the small plane A&Ps out there

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Pilot-34

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I’ve read some interesting discussions about how A&P training Could be shorter if it didn’t include so much emphasis on large commercial craft.
For those of you that have gone to school and spent a lot of time working on small aircraft A couple of questions.

How much time in training do you think could actually be saved and still be training competent repair personnel for small planes , if any.

Where would you draw the line for small planes for that type of training.

Just for this arguments sake Let’s assume the current standard requires 2000 hours of intensive classroom training.
 

proppastie

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depends on the student...and it really does not matter because "the law is the law", until you or a liked minded individual becomes FAA administrator we are stuck with it.

I have seen people that can not hold a screwdriver square to the screw slot,....I do not care how many hours they train they will not be capable of working on aircraft.....Kids working with their dad aircraft mechanic or successful aircraft homebuilder would need very few hours training.
 

Pilot-34

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This is how laws like that get changed.
People discuss the topic and eventually enough people come to a consensus to influence the behavior
For me asking the question Iof experienced people is gathering data to make an informed decision.
I’ve seen numbers like 16 hours of training thrown out for A self maintenance certificate
That just doesn’t seem like it would be adequate
There’s a approved school In Granite city il That does the training in about 2000 hours.
Cutting that down to 16 doesn’t seem realistic.
But what do I know I haven’t gone through the training.
 

TFF

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You would not save anything unless you wanted a limited license. There is generally five sections to classes for A&P. General; teach people airplane language and make sure they can add and write. Structures; all those disciplines. Systems; every gismo in the airplane. Then engines are split into two. Piston and then jet. Skip out and you miss out. If you end up with a plane with something you can’t work on you are looking for another A&P for the A&P.


That is why homebuilts are good for one off owners. They can do it all as they are considered the factory of one plane.

An A&P license doesn’t teach the ins and outs of every little detail. You get the A&P and the rest of your life is OJT training. Not much hand holding. You do or out.

My school was 18 months, some high dollar ones can be 12 months. On your own requires I believe 36 months. Not living 36 months but working essentially 6000 hours under someone’s wing. Log book of tasks required to prove it.

Don’t forget on a certified plane, the annual inspection can only be done with someone with the additional Inspection Authorization license. That requires three years of experience to gain once you get the A&P. Certain repairs require that too.

You may not be happy of the system, but it is the system. Only complaining gets no where because it’s not going to change. Complaining while going through it at least gives you a credibility.
 

Pilot-34

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I think that is the idea, to get a very limited license that would allow you to work on your own small plane safely.

Or do you think that needed knowledge to work on your own plane would also be good enough that you could work on other peoples?
Something in the area between a piper cub and a Cessna centurion.

Or perhaps it should be limited to non-complex aircraft?


It makes sense that an A&P mechanic would have to charge to cover his knowledge about Jets and C130s even though he may not need it to work on your 172.
 

narfi

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The a&p is already a very limited license.
Fresh a&p just out of school needs to work under supervision not trusted to be able to troubleshoot or even reassemble something they took apart themselves until they have worked under a competent mechanic for a couple of years.

It is 30months to get an a&p under an apprentiship, and requires no specific time or documentation. You just have to convince the faa guy at the fisdo that you did indeed work full time under a licensed a&p for those 30 months. Years ago I just got a letter from payroll saying I had been working and that was enough. Today I have my apprentices keep a daily log.

If your interest is in general aviation, you will be as useful upon completing your 30 month apprenticeship and getting your a&p as a school educated a&p would be after 12-24 months of leaving school.

Apprenticeship does require a little more self discipline to study, but in the long run is a more fiscally responsible method and better way to learn productive practice sense experience.
 

proppastie

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I’ve seen numbers like 16 hours of training thrown out for A self maintenance certificate
there is a list of items a owner pilot can do on a certified aircraft......I do not think that 16 hr would be enough starting from zero to know enough to accomplish those tasks. I think it took me 2 hr to train someone to change their oil.

The Federal Aviation Regulations, in part 43, refer to these kind of actions as preventive maintenance. In particular, 14 CFR 43.3(g)

Want to be an A&P start reading....this is exactly what you need to know....if you do not like to read it will be lots harder.
 

proppastie

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It is unfortunate but real, pilots and mechanics have to be part lawyer in order to read and comply with the regulation which were written by lawyers.
 

Pilot-34

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The a&p is already a very limited license.
Fresh a&p just out of school needs to work under supervision not trusted to be able to troubleshoot or even reassemble something they took apart themselves until they have worked under a competent mechanic for a couple of years.

It is 30months to get an a&p under an apprentiship, and requires no specific time ....
I did not know that
I thought they were trusted to do repairs

I suspect in practical terms 30 months of apprenticeship full-time works out to something like 5000 hours
 

Pilot-34

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there is a list of items a owner pilot can do on a certified aircraft......I do not think that 16 hr would be enough starting from zero to know enough to accomplish those tasks. I think it took me 2 hr to train someone to change their oil.

The Federal Aviation Regulations, in part 43, refer to these kind of actions as preventive maintenance. In particular, 14 CFR 43.3(g)

Want to be an A&P start reading....this is exactly what you need to know....if you do not like to read it will be lots harder.
 

Pilot-34

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I have to agree with you that I doubt that 16 hours would be anything close to sufficient
But if you were Teaching a class
How many hours of classroom training do you think it would take to train someone to safely maintain a Cessna 172?
 

12notes

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Something similar to what you are requesting is the Light Sport Repairman certificate. It's a 15-day, 120 hour course restricted to one class of LSA aircraft (fixed wing, weight shift, etc.), but does allow you to work on planes and charge for your services.

The LSA Repairman: Maintenance or Inspection Rating? (Scroll down, it starts by describing the 16 hour Inspection course, this just allows you to do the annual Condition Inspection on an E-LSA that you own.):
"Successful completion of the Repairman Maintenance Rating allows you to perform the maintenance, the annual condition inspection, and the 100 hour inspections (required only for aircraft used for hire) on any Special Light Sport Aircraft and or any Experimental Light Sport Aircraft in the assigned “class” of the selected course. This is an FAA approved workshop and an FAA certificate is issued after successful completion. You do not have to own the aircraft. You do not even need to be a pilot and you may charge for your services."

Advisory Circular describing it (.pdf):
 

D Hillberg

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A&P can sign off their work. What ever it might be, All their data had better be approved and to those limits as approved by the Administrator.....

a whole lot of things he can't do . . .

Only a pilot can 'return to service' . . .

Owner Operator are responsible for Airworthiness. . .

All as approved by the Administrator. . .

And he isn't even along for the ride

You can walk into your local FSDO with a DD 214 in hand with an aviation related MOS and ask for permission to take the oral & written tests.
Take the tests and return to the FSDO with your passing results and leave with your Air Frame & Power plant Certificate.

and that's where your adventure begins into the aggravating, low paying, Ambulance chasing, penny pinching, life as a trained mechanic who has no deep pockets in his greasy overalls enjoying the "I'm living the Dream" lifestyle .....
 
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Riggerrob

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It is unfortunate but real, pilots and mechanics have to be part lawyer in order to read and comply with the regulation which were written by lawyers.
It is equally unfortunate that lawyers write in a dialect (boilerplate) incomprehensible to the average mechanic or rigger.
 

Marc Zeitlin

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It is equally unfortunate that lawyers write in a dialect (boilerplate) incomprehensible to the average mechanic or rigger.
This is straying from the OP's topic (but it's the internet!). I'm not a lawyer and neither do I play one on TV, but having written a fair amount of technical documentation for regulated industries (medical, aviation), I'd be interested in seeing someone who complains about the language of regulations (or AC's, for that matter) give a specific example of a regulation they think is "legalese incomprehensible" (these examples most certainly exist), and then an example of what that regulation would look like if written in language comprehensible to the average goober, remembering that to get an A&P certificate, one only has to get a 70 or above on the written test, which is all multiple choice.

In the same way that someone who graduated at the bottom of their class in medical school is still called "doctor", someone who just barely passed their written and practical is still called A&P. And as we've seen here in many instances, even very intelligent people (as of course, all of us here are) can disagree (and do) on WTF the regulations are actually trying to tell us, and even what they SHOULD be trying to tell us.

Where was I? Oh, yeah - get off my lawn!
 

TerryM76

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"Only a pilot can 'return to service' . . ".

A mechanic's signature in the maintenance record entry is the approval for return to service for the maintenance performed (14CFR 43.9).

All as approved by the Administrator. . .

You can walk into your local FSDO with a DD 214 in hand with an aviation related MOS and ask for permission to take the oral & written tests.
Take the tests and return to the FSDO with your passing results and leave with your Air Frame & Power plant Certificate.

An applicant will generate form 8610-2 for Airman Certificate Application. FAA will sign Bock V for permission to test, based on information stated above. Applicant will take written knowledge tests for General, Airframe, & Powerplant subjects. Upon passing these tests applicant can schedule Oral & Practical tests with a Designated Mechanic Examiner (DME). When applicant passes these tests the DME will issue a temporary Airman Certificate. DME creates a file with all necessary documents and file is sent to the DME's FAA Managing Specialist (MS). The MS reviews the file and forwards to FAA in OK. FAA in OK reviews the file and issues the applicant the "permanent" (if such a thing actually exists) Airman Certificate.


and that's where your adventure begins into the aggravating, low paying, Ambulance chasing, penny pinching, life as a trained mechanic who has no deep pockets in his greasy overalls enjoying the "I'm living the Dream" lifestyle .....
 

proppastie

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This is straying from the OP's topic
Perhaps, but talking about what it takes or might minimally take to be an A&P requires reading and understanding the regulations too. It would not be straying to say what you said about the regulations or goobers.
 

Marc Zeitlin

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Perhaps, but talking about what it takes or might minimally take to be an A&P requires reading and understanding the regulations too.
Very true, and even more so with respect to E-AB aircraft, where the application of seldom used and interpreted regulations is at least as prevalent, and less taught, than with TC'd aircraft. Mike Busch's articles make clear that even with TC'd aircraft, interpretation of the regs is far from obvious or even, but in E-AB aircraft, I find the range of opinions of even knowledgeable A&P's (a group in which I LIKE to consider myself, but who really knows) varies wildly.
  • Do AD's apply to E-AB aircraft?
  • Does the requirement to log maintenance apply to E-AB aircraft?
  • What's the definition of a "Major Change" for an E-AB aircraft?
just for a few examples.

It would not be straying to say what you said about the regulations or goobers.
Glad you think so :).
 

D Hillberg

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Try again, The mechanic signs off his work and his work only. He releases the aircraft to the owner.
An IA signs off 337 forms and annuals with a few odds and ends that require approved data.
A mechanic with a pilot certificate may return to service as a minimum of a private certificate can test fly as required . . .
A pilot returns to service , no where can a mechanic go beyond his limitations. look to Pt 61 certificate limitations & 91 operations for guidance....

Yea, lots of folks think 'return to service' is a mechanic thing. . . But the pilots get all the hot babes and glory.
 
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