Flying Boat or Bust

Discussion in 'Wood Construction' started by Heroben, Mar 11, 2012.

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  1. Mar 19, 2013 #41

    Heroben

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Where did you got that side plate of it Larr? Very good, Got a larger one? Well, hull is the simplest part of this babe. Dead ride angles, keel, step, planing angles etc. On the boat side I'm safe, on the wing side..... the story is quite different. I am currently lofting the keel (hull) to a 1:1 plan. Will start cutting assembly soon. savoia_s_21_j_keel_by_heroben-d5rt7lw.jpg ( As I said before, boats are easy) Anything Larr, anything you can input would be appreciated. calculating swept at 11 degrees.
     
  2. Mar 20, 2013 #42

    Heroben

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Understanding the project:

    many people come aroujd and asks me about this plane, and to fully understand it, we will have to have a look on 5 different planes, being 1 fictional and 4 real ones.
    1- Savoia S.21
    The Savoia S.21 is a fictional seaplane fighter that appears in the anime film Porco Rosso, directed by Hayao Miyazaki.
    While the plane depicted in the film never existed, Savoia was an actual Italian aircraft maker which produced a considerable number of flying boats in the 1920s, during which the film is set. An actual Savoia S.21 even existed, though the fictional one does not closely resemble it—the Cant.Z 501 "Seagull" is probably the closest real-life match. As a matter of fact, Hayao Miyazaki is said to have drawn his Savoia S.21 from his childhood memories of Macchi M.33.
    The S.21 was a custom-built fighter seaplane with a single parasol wing, above which was mounted a single engine nacelle. It had a flying-boat hull and outrigger floats, and carried two machine guns in the nose. In the film, there are two versions of the S.21. The initial version was powered by an Isotta-Fraschini Asso liquid-cooled V-12 engine; the later version mounted a Fiat A.S.2 "Folgore" V-12 with a modified radiator configuration. In addition to the engine, the new version had a tiny forward cockpit.
    In The Age of the Flying Boat, the book on which the film is based, the modified version takes a Rolls-Royce Kestrel engine. The aircraft was painted bright red with Italian tricolor stripes on the wings and tail.
    Specifications
    Crew: initial version, 1 pilot; second version, additional 1 passenger
    Length: 7.92 m
    Wingspan: 10 m
    Powerplant: 430 hp (320 kW)
    Maximum Speed: 330 km/h
    Armament: 2 × 7.92 mm Spandau machine-guns

    2- The macchi M.33
    The Macchi M.33 was a single-seat, wooden, shoulder-wing monoplane flying boat of very clean aerodynamic design for its time. Its cantilever wing was fairly thick and carried stabilizing floats on each side. Italy lacked competitive racing engines in 1925, so the M.33 was powered with a used 1923 Curtiss D-12 engine rated at 378 kilowatts (507 horsepower) in a steamlined nacelle mounted on struts above the fuselage and driving a two-bladed tractor propeller. The M.33 had a flat-plate radiator, a type that was obsolescent by 1925, rather than modern surface radiators.
    The D-12 engines powering M.33s were worn-out and unreliable and lacked the power of newer foreign engines, and pilots reported that the aircraft suffered from wing flutter.
    General characteristics
    Crew: 1
    Length: (?)
    Wingspan: (?)
    Height: (?)
    Powerplant: 1 × Curtiss D-12, 378 kW (507 hp)

    3- The Chantiers Aéro-Maritimes de la Seine 36 ( C.A.M.S. 36)
    The CAMS 36 was a 1920s French flying boat designed and built by Chantiers Aéro-Maritimes de la Seine. It was originally conceived as a single-seat fighter but evolved as a racer to compete in the 1922 Schneider Trophy race. Lack of funds in 1922 and an accident in 1923 meant the two aircraft built failed to contest a Schneider race.
    Originally designed as a single-seat biplane flying-boat fighter, the CAMS 36 was modified to compete in the 1922 Schneider Trophy. Originally built with a pusher-propeller this was changed to a tractor arrangement for the 300 hp (224 kW) Hispano-Suiza 8Fd piston engine.Twin vertical wing bracing struts were changed to a single I-type strut. Although the racer proved to be fast in the air, a lack of funds stopped the two aircraft competing.
    For the 1923 race one of the aircraft was modified with a larger 360 hp (268 kW) Hispano-Suiza 8Fd piston engine. The I-type struts were changed back to a more conventional arrangement. The new variant was designated the CAM 36bis. On the day of the contest, the 36bis, piloted by Lieutenant Pelletier d'Oisy, collided with a yacht at anchor on the Solent and the damaged aircraft was prevented from racing.
    General characteristics
    Crew: 1
    Length: 7.75 m (25 ft 5 in)
    Wingspan: 8.60 m (28 ft 3 in)
    Height: 2.80 m (9 ft 2 in)
    Wing area: 20.00 m2 (215.3 sq ft)
    Empty weight: 945 kg (2,083 lb)
    Max takeoff weight: 1,260 kg (2,778 lb)
    Powerplant: 1 × Hispano-Suiza 8Fd inline piston, 220 kW (300 hp)
    Performance
    Maximum speed: 250 km/h (155 mph; 135 kn)

    4- The SIAI S.21 ( usually WRONGLY called Savoia s.21)
    The S.21 was a single-seat inverted sesquiplane -- its upper wing was of shorter span that its lower wing -- flying boat with its engine mounted on struts above its hull and below its upper wing. The 224-kilowatt (300-horsepower) Ansaldo San Giorgio 4E-14[1] engine drove a four-bladed pusher propeller. Small stabilizer floats were mounted beneath the lower wing on each side.
    During test flights, the S.21 proved extremely difficult to control, and the only pilot who had success with it was Guido Giannello. When Giannerro fell ill at the time of the 1921 Schneider Trophy race and was unable to pilot it, the S.21 was withdrawn from the race.
    General characteristics
    Crew: 1
    Length: 7.62 m (25 ft 0 in)
    Wingspan: 7.69 m (24 ft 2¾ in)
    Powerplant: 1 × Ansaldo San Giorgio 4E-14, 224 kW (300 hp)
    Performance
    Maximum speed: 290 km/h (180 mph)

    5- The Fokker B2 Seaplane ( in my opinion, the most close to this project)
    This light aircraft made his first flight at december 15 1923. It had a Rolls-Royce Eagle VIII engine of 360 Hp and a cruisingspeed of 175 km/h.
    One delivered to the Dutch Navy for testing. It had a light-alloy hull and biplane wooden wings with fabric covered control surfaces. The B.2 was intended as a three-seat sea-reconnaissance plane with the possibility to be hoisted on board of warships and to be launched by a catapult. The first flight was made on 15 December 1923 from the water of Schellingwoude near Amsterdam. The B.2 was also tested by the Dutch navy for operational use, but just like the B.1 it was found to be unsuitable. Although the B.2 carried Dutch military markings, the single prototype built was never purchased by the Dutch navy! Fokker tried unsuccessfully to sell the B.2, but after a short time it was scrapped.
    Power plant: Rolls Royce Eagle VIII liquid-cooled in-line engine of 360 hp, driving a four- bladed tractor propeller
    Wing span: 13.50 m
    Length: 9.91 m
    All-up weight: 2400 kg
    Max. speed: 190 km/h at sea level
     
  3. Mar 20, 2013 #43

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    home grown.jpg homegrown, harvested and milled Doug Fir, ( magic made with a chainsaw and an Alaskan mill) few years drying, moisture content low nowadays. Spar to be, after cutting will bath it in Linseed oil. Yeap, I understand wood. Wish I had some okume and some mahogany too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  4. Mar 21, 2013 #44

    DangerZone

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    Interesting wood selection, are the specs of the Douglas Fir that you intend to use closer to spruce or pine?

    And being a flying boat, what are your plans for moisture and humidity protection of the wooden parts?
     
  5. Mar 21, 2013 #45

    larr

    larr

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    Well, where to start ...
    Firstly, now that I have some idea what you are actually trying to do I do have some usable advice:
    Make sure you know what you're doing.

    I've uploaded some images from Ermanno Bazzocchi's paper on the Schneider Trophy seaplanes, if you don't have it you should get it.
    Cover - Bazzocchi.jpg schneider bazzocchi.jpg macchi m33 profile bazzocchi.jpg

    A quick overview, as I see it -
    Given the overall similarities between the Macchi M.33 and your likely interpretation of the non-existent FS.21 I think I can talk about the M.33 and it will apply directly to you.

    The Macchi had a very high wing loading and a maximum fuel load of about 50 gallons. Even so, the wings were considered to be weak.
    Anything near the fuel load you have proposed (450 gal.) will never fly, and very probably the wings and hull would be severely damaged long before reaching take off speed.
    It would take a substantial redesign to come anywhere near your original goals.
    SavoiaBlueprints.jpg
    Alternatively, you could build it generally following the M.33 structural design and have something unique with about a 500 mile range.
    It will still be quite a challenge to fly.
    That still leaves the issue of the structure and location of the wings, as I said, make sure you know what you're doing.

    If you're looking for a bigger challenge ...
    coal flying boat.jpg
     
  6. Apr 6, 2013 #46

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Larr, thank you for pointing Bazzochi's book on the Schneider racers, got me a pdf copy of it. Quite interesting. ( a curious point is: No one EVER disclaim the hull width/beam, be it of a pontoon or flying boat. The beam measurement is never there. Well we can always re calculate it but...) Love the way they mixed their own fuels.... VERY interesting point here.
    Speaking of books, a French friend gave me a copy of a quite rare one, ( can you read French, Larr?) it's called "Precis d Hydraviation", Its the C.A.M.S. book and oh boy, it's filled with good stuff ( remember the CAMS 36)
    \And you are right, the wing load factor is a quite annoying one to be calculated.
     
  7. Apr 15, 2013 #47

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    35024_104322523101952_1513877217_n.jpg 62837_104324559768415_1183495561_n.jpg 529593_104324566435081_101733303_n.jpg 548916_104324529768418_458668493_n.jpg you are right about that wing Larr. It will required a lots of rework. But Hull is perfect.
     
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  8. Apr 17, 2013 #48

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Redone wing, NACA 23013,5 , Xi = 11 deg. Now. let's correct that dehidral angle
     

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  9. Apr 29, 2013 #49

    Dcollins85

    Dcollins85

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    I'm very interested in your work, I too fell in love with Porco Rosso and want to build the plane he flew around in ( with staying as true to it's design as possible ).

    I know it's just a model... but it does give a good view of the inside of the airplane from Porco Rosso. Hope this helps.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  10. Apr 30, 2013 #50

    larr

    larr

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    Rosso Corsa - Metric Edition

    42MUSAM-Macchi_M391926p34 sm sm.jpg

    Well, I've taken another, longer look at your project from a historical and more practical perspective.
    Macchi_M.7ter fighter sm.jpg macchi_m-7ter.jpg italy_savoia-s67_1930 sm.jpg
    The flying boat fighter had a fairly long history in Italy, running from WWI until the mid 1930's. I hadn't noticed before but the very early Macchi flying boat fighters, the M.5 and M.7, had swept wings and were armed with dual machine guns. The later SIAI S.67 was a monoplane, so there is a historical precedent, of sorts, for the fictional S.21 F.
    But pay particular attention to the S.67 - especially the cross bracing on the engine supports and the wing struts.

    I've taken some of Bazocchi's numbers on the M.33 and made a simple analysis based on similar dimensions and weights (and a normal fuel load - not one based on the model) for the S.21F:
    M33 S21F COMPARO.jpg
    I guestimated the complete engine/nacelle weight on the M.33 (historically, bare engine weight was around 300 kg) - this left the rest of the plane weighing about 610 kg, not too far from 2 seater LSA territory.
    However, it looks like you are trying to recreate the fictional airplane's performance in every respect. In this case, you are going to end up with the wing loading of a racing plane (higher than a contemporary fighter - the parasol Dewoitine D.27 was around 74 kg/m2). Since your original goal was long distance flight this is more than a small problem - there is simply no way to increase the fuel load. In fact, you should be looking for ways to reduce the overall weight.
    savoia_s_21_j__1_1_fore_body_lofting__by_heroben-d61ubck sm.jpg 100415_Curtiss4 lg.jpg Macchi_M67_foto_39 sm.jpg savoia_s_21_see_thru_by_heroben-d5ggyws.jpg

    Fine Molds got a number of things right, and a number of things wrong - particularly in the construction of the fuselage/hull. On a flying boat the maximum stress is on the flat part of the plane - up to 10g's in the worst case. You can see that significant masses are collected here - the stupidly large gas tank and the cabane/engine mount/wing/engine. Yet, in this model it is the weakest part of the fuselage. Generally, it looks like you are drawing 5 cm. formers down the whole fuselage, while mostly it could be lighter formers and stringers except in the area of the cabane. In the pic of the Macchi M.67 you can see the heavy formers used to carry the float and wing loads (otherwise, the cockpit is lightly built.)

    As far as the wings go I've tried to locate a likely position for the spars that lines up well with the cabane struts. In this case the rear of the front spar is at about 25% of chord. So the wing is basically doable. The problem is that it's a fully swept constant chord cantilever wood wing. Outside of some experimental sailplanes I don't know that this design was ever used. You are really on your own with this one.


    Since the spars aren't straight it's going to be difficult to carry the loads through the centre section and to transfer them to the cabane. Not only that, but the pontoons are going to generate fairly high point loads fairly far outboard. Probably you will need to incorporate another spar into the centre section and tie it into the main spars. I've come up with a general layout that I think is the basis for something workable and will help carry the pontoon loads.
    g6137 sm.jpg
    As far as dihedral goes, you might be all right with none or very little which would simplfy construction. You might go the Fokker route with the top surface level and all the taper underneath.
    Overall, I think you should build from the standpoint of developing strength where necessary by using thicker buildups of ply.
     
  11. May 20, 2013 #51

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Thank you again Larr, I will take the third spar into serious consideration. Meanwhile I am still trying to secure a proper engine. I calculate 7 main bulkheads on the forebody with 2 stringers per section, Yeap, that gas tank and the metal fittings will require serious rework. Talk to me about the pontoons attaching points! Any input, please, let me know. Dcollins85 Thank you! If I can get this babe approved, plans will be OPEN SOURCE. The more the merrier.

     
  12. May 20, 2013 #52

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    974072_462938880450805_219191102_n.jpg Internal work, courtesy of Ozawa Hideaki
     
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  13. May 20, 2013 #53

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    By the way Larr, the M33 engine + prop+ hub+ water had a total weight of 724 lbs or 328 kgs. Info courtesy of my Italians friends of the S.A.I. AMBROSINI S.7 project. (S.7 Project)
     
  14. May 23, 2013 #54

    Heroben

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    248052_129258970608307_1570319356_n.jpg 935378_128511737349697_397658299_n.jpg Bulkheads taking shape. Yehaw! Who needs a Flying Lumberyard while "One cord of firewood"( Plane's nickname around here) can do the trick?
     
  15. Jun 15, 2013 #55

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    1608_138182489715955_947215377_n.jpg 994759_138182486382622_453350334_n.jpg Main formers, planning area ( prismatic) based on C.A.M.S. equations. Now, got to shave some weight off it. Having fun nevertheless.
     
  16. Jul 12, 2013 #56

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    BKtest.jpg BKtest2.jpg Having fun on the shop. Well, those are test pieces ONLY. 1:1
     
  17. Dec 21, 2013 #57

    BenoitLescot

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    hi Any update on your work ?
     
  18. Feb 4, 2014 #58

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Yes, we are moving forward at somewhat snail pace. We got a page on facebook and currently working on the Project website, WE ARE GOING CROWD FUNDING!
     
  19. Feb 5, 2014 #59

    BenoitLescot

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    great, what's the page ?
     
  20. Feb 5, 2014 #60

    Kingfisher

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    I very much like your project. I have just borrowed a copy of Porco Rosso from friends who say it's great. I am definitely going to watch it now after reading this thread.

    Do you have more info regarding the crowd funding? I’ve read a bit on the kickstarter web page, and it sounds like the worst thing that can happen is that you get a bad reputation if you don’t meet your goals and promises? What about the money people give you?
     

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