Flying Boat or Bust

Discussion in 'Wood Construction' started by Heroben, Mar 11, 2012.

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  1. Mar 11, 2012 #1

    Heroben

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Hello to all here, this is my first post, although I've been lurking around this forum for over a year now.
    Well, where to start????
    Like everyone else here, my dream is also to build my own plane, but not any plane.
    So, here is some of the info I gathered, will post more as the thread evolves.

    Mission: Arctic Flight - From Barrow AK to Helsinki FI [TD="class: vTop fbPhotoUfiCol"]Distance is 3524 miles or 3062 nautical miles or 5761 kilometers. This distance is the theoretical air distance ( great circle distance). This is the shortest theoretical flight path. [/TD]





    General Characteristics

    Crew: 1 + one cat
    Length: 25 ft 11.811023622047173 inches or 7.92 meters
    Wingspan: 32 ft 9.700787401574757 inches or 10.00 meters
    Airfoil: TO BE DECIDED
    Powerplant: Ferrari V12 1985 testarossa ( bought on EBAY, hahaha)
    Body Type: Monocoque
    Wing type: Parasol with the classic Cabane struts
    fuel: Regular gas
    Fuel capacity: 450 gallons which will equal around 2000 pounds or more
    Oil capacity: 50 gallons ( yup, keep an eye on that weight)
    Empty weight: around 2000 pounds ( bit more depending on type of wood)
    Max take off weight: around 5000 pounds
    Range: 4500 miles
    service ceiling: 15000 ft

    I've been drawing multiple hulls ( hey its a seaplane), but Im stuck trying to find the proper airfoil.
    Any suggestions?
    Still have to consider multiple things like wood contraction and expansion on Sub-Arctic and Arctic conditions, weatherize and other wonderful things that make my day such a pleasure.
    Shall we play?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
  2. Mar 11, 2012 #2

    orion

    orion

    orion

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    Comment: 450 gallons of fuel is more like 2,500 pounds.

    Question: Why 50 gallons of oil?

    Comment: Hulled planes tend to have heavier mass fractions. Using roundabout figures given your guidelines, your payload (and including fuel and survival gear), will most likely be in the 3,000 to 3,500 pound range. As such, even a single seat hulled aircraft may have an empty weight higher than you think. This is why a fairly detailed weight and balance is pretty critical, even this early in the design process.
     
  3. Mar 11, 2012 #3

    TFF

    TFF

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    Ferrari had flat 12s for those types of Testarossas.
     
  4. Mar 11, 2012 #4

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Good question.
    I just realized that by using a regular auto engine ( read heavily modified) I don't need that crazy amount of oil after all.
    Hate to cut corners , but is there any way to get a proper weight measurements?
    About fuel, since one gallon ( US) of gas weights 6.073 pounds, 450 gallons will weight around 2,732.85 pounds (1 239.59991 kg)
     
  5. Mar 11, 2012 #5

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Exactly, it's a Colombo flat 12 ( last flat model manufactured by them).
    Trying to find it's weight, but no luck so far.
     
  6. Mar 13, 2012 #6

    Rogalloflyr

    Rogalloflyr

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    Just in pasing- Why not a Turbo jet engine ( or two)??

    Rogaslloflyer
     
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  7. Mar 14, 2012 #7

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Cost and fuel cost. So, here we are, the engine IS a Colombo v12, thinking about a gear transfer and the use of counter rotating propellers, just like the Payen or the Macchi M72. But we all know, more parts increases possibility of failure.
     
  8. Mar 14, 2012 #8

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Starting today the building of an awesome 1/4 scale model of final hull design, will be using scrap wood but construction technique will be the real deal. Final model to measure around 6 feet 6 11⁄32 inches or 1.99 meters. Pictures shall follow. And yes, I am using my own set of plans after many modifications. Never the less, having fun!
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2012
  9. Mar 28, 2012 #9

    conestogaman

    conestogaman

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    Hello. I love the avatar. I also like the flying boats.

    Is there a reason you went with the Ferarri engine instead of something with better parts availability in the boonies should you need a part or repairs/service?

    Also, is this a pusher or tractor?

    What part of norcal are you in? I'd like to see the progress on your Hull in person as you finalize the details. I am interested in the cabane/wing attachment points. I am working on a small seaplane hull also, but smaller than yours, and am looking for inspiration on mating the wing to the hull. Mine will be a wing mounted pusher engine.

    Thanks,

    Jeff
     
  10. Apr 21, 2012 #10

    dodgedartgt

    dodgedartgt

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    Normally I'm a lurker, but I just found this thread, and I'm VERY interested! Do you have any progress to tell or show?
    Thnx, Mike Bynum
     
  11. Apr 30, 2012 #11

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    557804_256281961132067_100002507944142_533743_1830042159_n.jpg
    There are soooooo many things to consider when designing a hull, I will be back later on this week with way more info on this babe and proper pictures. ITS A TRACTOR. I know,I know, spray, torque, and so many other factors....Cabane attachment points still need to be calculated. Im looking for the AIRFOIL ( I have the Naca reports) , but not sure wich one should I pick. Any help?
    By the way, meassurements HAVE changed.

    Crew: 1 + one cat
    Length: 25 ft 11.811023622047173 inches or 7.92 meters
    Hull height on Main bulkhead( bk at step): 52.10236387 inches or 132.346 cm
    Hull width at spet bk: 44.8818912 inches or 114 cm
    Wingspan: 40.5511811 feet or 12.36 meters
    Swept angle:?
    Dihedral: 6 degrees
    Chord line at root: ?
    Chordline at tip: ?
    Angle of attack: ?
    Airfoil: TO BE DECIDED
    Powerplant: To be decided ( min requirement 270 hp and up)
    Body Type: Monocoque
    Wing type: Parasol with the classic Cabane struts
    fuel: Avgas
    Fuel capacity: 450 gallons which will equal around 2000 pounds or more
    Oil capacity: 50 gallons ( yup, keep an eye on that weight)
    Empty weight: around 2000 pounds ( bit more depending on type of wood)
    Max take off weight: around 5000 pounds
    Range: 4500 miles
    service ceiling: 15000 ft
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  12. Apr 30, 2012 #12

    Matt G.

    Matt G.

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    You really need to pick up some books on aircraft design and start reading. What is driving the sizing of the aircraft? Typically you'd define a mission (ie range, payload, cruise speed, stall speed, and perhaps takeoff/landing distances, for example) and then that will narrow down your options for everything else. You seem to be arbitrarily choosing the length, wingspan, dihedral, required horsepower, fuel capacity, etc, and that isn't an efficient way to design an airplane.

    BTW, no need to run all your unit conversions out to 10+ decimal places...you will not be able to measure nor manufacture anything to that accurate of a dimension.
     
  13. May 1, 2012 #13

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    I did it, Matt, for almost 2 years now, and since flying boats this size have pretty much disappeared, I had to travel back in time to 1919 and from there I've stayed untill around 1933 learning the "lost" techniques.
    My system IS metric. Everything ends up in metric with me. hehehe. C'est Magnifique.
    No, I am not " arbitrarily" choosing meassurements, there are a LOT of equations behind it, altough I know that there are loads of info missing here.
    Few books under my belt so far:

    A History of Aeronautics by E. Charles Vivian
    Aeroplane construction by Sydney Camm 1919
    Aircraft Configuration Design Options by W.H. Mason
    Aircraft Design and Construcition b y Otorrino Pomilio
    Aircraft Design : Synthesis and Analysys by ( ? ) published by Stanford
    Applied Aerodynamics by Leonard Bairstow
    Aviation Engines by First Lieut. Victor W. Page
    Aviation, Theorico-Practical Textbook for Students by Benjamin Morreale Camina
    Bulding and Flying an Aeroplane by Charles Bryan Hayward
    Building the Corben Babe Ace by Paul Poberzny
    Data on The Design of PlywoodFor Aircraft by US Department of Agriculture ( 1941)
    Design Rules for Small Low Speed Wind Tunnels by R. D. Mehta and P. Bradshaw
    Dictionary of Aviation by Robert Morris Pierce
    Flying Machines by Robert Morris Pierce
    Flying Machines Practice and Design by Rankin Kennedy
    Harper's Aircraft Book by A. Hyatt Verril
    HM 14 The Story by Henry Mignet
    How to Build an Aeroplane by F. Robert Petit
    How to Evaluate Boats by Kobus Potgieter
    Mechanical drawing and Practical Drafting by Charles Henry Sampson
    Performance Analysis by Scott Eberhardt
    Mordern Aerodynamics Flutter Analysis Martin Hollmann
    Monoplanes and Biplanes by Grover Cleveland Loening
    Mosquito FB6 Manual
    Non-Certified Wood Testing and selection by Drew Fidoe
    Perfectionnements Apporte Aux Governes Des Aerodynes by/pour M. Buggati
    Planing Hulls by Kobus Potgieter
    Practical Aviation Including Construction and Operation by J. Andrew White
    Practical Flying by Flight-Commander W. G. McMinnies
    Practical Mechanical Drawing and Machine Design ( Self Taught) by Charles Westhinghouse
    Stepped Hulls by Kobus Potgieter
    Textbook of Applied Aeronautic Engineering by Henry Woodhouse
    The Design of Aeroplanes by Arthur W. Judge
    The Mastery of The Air by Willian J. Claxton
    The Mechanical Principles of The Aeroplane by S. Brodetsky, M.D.
    Theory of Wing Sections Including a Summary of Airfoil Data by IRA H. Abbott
    Wong Tsu ( by unknow, unsigned ebook 15 pages)
    Wood in Aircraft Construction [Prepared by the Forest Products Laboratory, Forest Service, TJ. S. Department of Agriculture.]

    Almost forgot to mention my Bible, WATER FLYING by Franklin T. Kurt

    And I am still in need of your inputs. Your experience...
    Thank you all.

    Jean-Luc
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2012
  14. May 1, 2012 #14

    revkev6

    revkev6

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    so you basically want to build an S-39 with ten times the range???
     
  15. May 1, 2012 #15

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    No, not the S39; closest design is the MACCHI M33 ( with a different wing placement and heavy hull mod), but you can always remember the Siai's machines like the S16, SM55, SM56, S62 or the Sea Lion, MACCHI M5, Lohner Type M and other configurations close to those babes.
    Yeap, the range is the most important factor here, and besides that, who ever heard of a HOMEBUILT/EXPERIMENTAL plane making across the Arctic?
    To be a bare machine, you know, STICK 'N RUDDER...
    And there are also the 5 NO-NOs that I've learned from an elder gentleman who used to fly long time ago :

    NO FLAPS
    NO TRIMTABS
    NO LANDING GEAR
    NO PRESSURIZED CAB
    NO ****

    Yehaw
     
  16. May 2, 2012 #16

    sachaknoop

    sachaknoop

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    Why NO Flaps. or Trimtabs?

    Sacha
     
  17. May 2, 2012 #17

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Because it adds mechanical complexity to the project, and I want to keep it simple. K.I.S.S. style (KISS= Keep it simple stupid, hahahaha)
    Well, I'm having fun. More pics later on tomorrow!
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  18. May 2, 2012 #18

    TFF

    TFF

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    No trim? Must have been a WW1 pilot.
     
  19. May 3, 2012 #19

    Matt G.

    Matt G.

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    An adjustable spring on the stick for pitch trim is about as simple as it gets...
     
  20. May 3, 2012 #20

    Heroben

    Heroben

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    Please, tell me more about it Matt. You've got my full attention. And yes TFF, if we do have multiple incarnations, like some say, I am sure I was there somehow.
     

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