Building from scratch a dream

Discussion in 'Bush / Float flying' started by Norm Langlois, Feb 9, 2019.

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  1. Feb 12, 2019 #21

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    We are not there yet . The spar is not made from 6061-0 nor any other part of the plane. Only the channel stock for the ribs were made from the 0 stock.
    That would not be ether if I could have gotten the coil in tempered grade.

    I made my statement on the artificially aged process I used . That was based on my internet search for a hardening process back in 2007. I guess you can believe all you read on the net. I could not, find that info today.
    However it was stated as I post . So that was what I did.

    Because I was not completely happy with the final rib. [ the bottom straight area ,behind the spar] subject to impact distortion. and deformation even after covering. The future creations became foam cored wrapped in channel.
    Though there probably is not another plane in the future. After knowing the machines I built can form even an alloy of t3 or t4 . I would search for a supplier of that grade.
     
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  2. Feb 12, 2019 #22

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    In January 2009 ,I had made the new internal one piece brace. I must have also decided on the shape of the spar and fuselage. These were made from 6061 T6 .050 sheet 4 X 10 . I was restricted by the 10 ft hand brake where I worked. Knowing as previously stated hiring a business to do something for an airpane is not received well.
    Why not the traditional round spars and boom tube??? Well I did the math . Because same weight to overall size . round can not be reduced with weight reducing flared holes . and a flat diaphragm like the triangle can .
    The thick wing airfoil also accommodates a larger taller triangle mono spar . This I thought would over all be lighter than the traditional ,ladder spars and compression braced . wing spar 005.jpg
     
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  3. Feb 12, 2019 #23

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    The lightening holes, are flared with a special tool. This is because I wanted them to have a deep flare . So I made this tool 5swege tool.JPG 06swg tl opn.jpg this was the first attempt through some very old .062 unknown aluminum from the side panel of a motor home. 04swedge nutral side.JPG
    From here I had multiple options, hole sizes and effects. The tool can make a very nice ashtray dish from 6061 -t6 depending on the male die and the outer diameter.
    My flare of choice for the spar and fuselage boom Has curvature to the flare. they are 1/2 inch deep into the material this is controlled by spacers that limit .
    Being able to make these flares added to what the spar and boom can be made to do. That is another plus over tube spar and boom tube.
     
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  4. Feb 12, 2019 #24

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    There are simple ways to flare as I did see in other aircraft build video.

    This tool elevates the options .The 8 springs are part of the clamp system built into the body, this clamps firmly before the male die does its deed. The clamp action reduces distortion to the material and insure that only the internal material contributes to the desired effect.
    Note the centering pin, this is for the outer diameter die. I had purchased some large knock out dies .They served double duty . I had to make a larger 4 inch outer as well.

    All holes begin with a 3/4 inch drilled hole they are then punched out with a knock out , then all are flared.
     
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  5. Feb 12, 2019 #25

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    When creating spar or boom the triangle does not have an acute 60 degree bend . The material likes to crack after 90 degrees. I opted for 30 a 1 inc flat and another 30 the acute 60 at the extreme end the bend goes out 30 and the third diaphragm riveted on.

    Though the spar and the boom also contain taper. The spar had an earlier attempt at warp control. Seen here with a torque tube . 100_0097.jpg
    This was opted out ,after Mark Stull advised me it was very strenuous and exhausting to fly a warp design. It was proving a heavy option ,I did not take much convincing.
     
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  6. Feb 12, 2019 #26

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    The frame of the original T tail under construction. 100_0082.jpg That was actually my 1st intention to build with a T tail. I was personally, uncomfortable. So when another friend said it looked to frail. I change path again. There was some more experimental deforming for the T tail root tube. heating and pulling a mandrel through the tube wall . was able to make a pass through one tube through the center of another side way at 90 degrees . T-tail rt tube.jpg 100_0066.jpg
     
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  7. Feb 12, 2019 #27

    addicted2climbing

    addicted2climbing

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    Hello Norm,

    Thank you for the informative reply. I will give building this a try once I have the rib blanks. My only concern with my profile is the shape. Seems the symmetrical U channel would be more stable to roll over the shape I have which is a 90 degree bend with a 45 degree bend stiffening edge that also helps with a soft edge for fabric. Would my asymmetrical shape try and twist in the rolling machine? I have a large format 3D printer and could make the entire thing as a prototype in plastic or nylon first and test it with T0 or 3000 series material first. Once I see it works, I then make the parts in metal. Right now, I have a shop willing to make me the Rib blank material with the 2 bends. I will place an order for some and then try my hand at fluting a rib and another at designing the rolling machine. Making a roll former like yours would be ideal to make the blanks from strip material instead of ripping down large flat sheets. I believe my blank width is 1.375" or 1.5". Cant remember off the top of my head but could redesign around a common strip size if needed. Would you be open with sharing some of the design for your roll former with me? I can make and design my own no problem, but dont have the background in knowing how the progressive die rollers need to be made and how far apart they need to be. Ever willing to learn a new skill however...

    Marc
     
  8. Feb 12, 2019 #28

    pictsidhe

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    Solution treating involves a quench from 529C. I'd put money on a man of your talents being able to build a small kiln to treat rib sized pieces...
    T3/T4 will artificially age to T5/T6, so would be a good material to use.
     
  9. Feb 12, 2019 #29

    pictsidhe

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    Marc, you need your own lathe! You might want to mention that you want to build kits, so a process that produces a perfect rib, but in 2 hours, isn't going to work for you... I suspect that you want a roll former, but Norm is definitely the expert on that.

    Norm, did you measure the stretch on the outside of your formed ribs? I's guess that there was some in addition to compression of the inside flanges.
     
  10. Feb 12, 2019 #30

    addicted2climbing

    addicted2climbing

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    I actually do have access to a large lathe at my EAA chapter, but its not in the best shape. I mainly use it to clean up cut tubing. If needed, I could buy some tooling for it. My only reason for mentioning making rollers out of 3D printed hard plastic was for iterative design testing as I go. In reality, the plan was to just offer up the pre bent blanks and let the builders flute them to make the ribs. However, If I could make a rolling tool to do it easily, I would be open to offering up built ribs instead of just stock material. I would liek to get more info from Norm, but perhaps it would be better to start a new thread where Norm can answer so I dont muddle up his thread.
     
  11. Feb 12, 2019 #31

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    Pictsidhe is right. You would need lots of machine shop equipment. Free hand drilling will not do. for frame work . milling would also be required.
    I had all that and more to use. Also industrial suppliers for the sprockets and locking collars. It is not going to be simple under taking.

    I would say I took an extreme path and resolve, to create my plane. It was more fun than flying for me. Doing what I did for years for others finally using and doing for myself. Still is fun .

    To answer you Marc about twist. Yes even my channel can do that. The in feed has to be dead center or an unequal leg begins and the built in stress results in a twist. cut to length.JPG see here the stock made in 12 ft cut offs. That was a continuous feed stopped then cut at the out-feed
     
  12. Feb 13, 2019 #32

    addicted2climbing

    addicted2climbing

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    Hey Norm,

    Thanks for the reply. Machining, fabrication and design is not a problem for me. I have nearly 30 years of experience designing products in machine design for robotics, so sprockets, collars, linear motion items and all custom designed bits are no problem and I know where to get everything. If you watched any of the 3D movies in theaters that were popular like the Hobbit, Spiderman, Transformers or the World Cup to name a few it was all filmed on robotic 3D rigs that I designed. My issue is I don't have this exact experience... Ie designing a roll former or slip roller to get the airfoil shape. The fluting method actually works pretty good and will be fine for most builders of the Skylite, but if I can make a machine to help make the blanks and pre curve the upper surface than it may be worthwhile for me to do so. I can take the time to learn it on my own, but also its always better to get some first hand knowledge so I don't make a mistake and go down a road you already did and already know it is the wrong path.

    Marc
     
  13. Feb 13, 2019 #33

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    The problem with these post and replies we don't know each others capabilities. Its hard not to offend sometimes. I by way of this post am also trying to project how deep one can get into design and resolve. One can envision a component That takes hours or days to produce. Now that does not matter if it is planned to be a 1 off.
    For production its a very different set of choices.

    Marc
    I can not tell you a roll former will not have adverse effects on the material being formed .I do not have that knowledge of metallurgy.
    I can tell you how to get the shape by way of roller dies. I expect for 5052-H32 you would want to get the whole shape in one operation to avoid work hardening over stress of the angles heal .
    An angle roll machine works with a preformed angle , This machines concept can be used still to form the angle and the other return edge and roll to an arc , in one feed starting with a flat strip of a set width.
    Coiled slit stock is the most uniform width and would be preferred over sheared .
    For your shape the arc and the 90 degree would be done in the first 5 or 6 stages with the final return done as a singe stage before exiting.
    My machine uses all driven arbors by a daisy chain drive. All rolls have a center pinch point and drive the material. The arbors are keyed and all forming components also they are locked and tuned by split threaded collars. That allow for aligning to center .
    The machine is complicated by the need to control that centering of the material.
    What you need could be done by the same type of roll former, buts not necessary .
    Your machine could be a single sided like a ring roll machine . using a box tubing with driven arbors through. The forming is done on the open side. the pressure rolls controlled by spring load or other. Distance between station kept to a minimum dictated by the drive gears and or diameter of roll dies, all driven rolls need to be the same size. The arc could be created by the alignment of the row. If they are aligned on an arc it will make the arc as the angle is formed. that final 45 degree will be a single stage. and if you chose sheared stock , the variable would be end up here. A geared system is better . For me at the time the expense was an issue. plane starts here.JPG
     
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  14. Feb 13, 2019 #34

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    Marc
    There are a variety of examples on the net. There is not real design limitations ,each method be it a simple hand crank for flat stock. Is crude or precision . For what you want to do its only partly precision . The number of stages are relevant to work hardening. Bending the 5052 H32 before rolling is not the right choice because of the work hardened heal. If its done progressively the work hardened points are respectful of each other being done ether at the same time or to material that has no work hardened effect. That is the point of my attempt to explain the stages ,in the previous post.
    A progressive angle and arc form, then the 45 .
    You would not be able to get a variable arc with out a complex programed pressure roll,or change to the alignment .

    I would like to add this . Any lather you choose , will need to be true .dead true no run out when the stock is chucked up for turning. making arbors that wobble wont do.
     
  15. Feb 13, 2019 #35

    Norm Langlois

    Norm Langlois

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    In the industry I served . The methods to control the speed of machines, is constantly evolving. When motors and electronic speed controller became obsolete. Well some came my way for free. Otherwise , I could not have built that machine with that DC variable drive and AC / DC electronic controller.
    The other roll former is also DC. I powered it with a campers converter and control the amperage VIA a dimmer switch.
    Another machine. This one is a hydraulic horizontal press made from obsolete cylinder and the hydraulic pump from a I/O boats trim system . There are 2 types out there a low pressure high volume found commonly on Merccruisers and a high pressure low volume on the OMC drives I used the OMC for my trailers lift and I have a low volume on the press. 20190210_132440 - Copy.jpg

    This machine came about in 2011 after removing the torque tube wing warp. I had a need to bring pressure bend to the home and the time consuming operations. away from the work place.
     
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  16. Feb 13, 2019 #36

    Norm Langlois

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    when making the spar or boom the flaring was for the most part done after bending. The flare would get in the way when clamping the brake . Because some would be under the jaw. The part was laid out and drilled with a 3/4 sheet metal drill then up sized to the knock out size bent up then went to the press for flaring. I had a special off set tool to get around various obstructed paths. That one is lost to the trash.
    I was the builder of the press that the shop now still uses. when I came to work there they had only a hand arbor press.
    The cylinder was actually my own from a snow plow. This was fast but only one way . When the boss over pressed and tore the whole press apart . He opted for a new 3 inch ram. My cylinder went in the trash, it leaked anyway. and later the offset adapter. hulljig1 022.jpg

    Here i am pressing before the bend. with the shop press. This must be one of the landing gear sides. 2nd cfg 002.jpg
    At this point I was still trying for an amphibian on floats. I did a weigh in ,and it was not going to make 254
    Disappointed. I realized it would have to be a hull and dedicated seaplane first . This 103-7 options brings the allowance up to 304 lbs with the rear sponsons and hull, 30 + 10+ 10 plus 254 = 304
    I had made that very well at 296 with the V tail and the all composite rear floats system
    It just was not going to be.
     
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  17. Feb 13, 2019 #37

    Norm Langlois

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    With the wheels removed and a hull created from polystyrene. The plane went as far as fast taxi in the V tail .There was a lot of time getting to that level as well.
    I still have not load tested the wing. its still without flaperon applied or covering . The first test hull modification 046.jpg This compression failure is as a cantilevered wing it failed center wing at about 2G load. I repaired and reinforced the top of the spar with 1 inch tube. second test hull modification 055.jpg Here it failed both side just beyond the 1 inch tubing. I only reinforced about 3 ft of the top and center of the damaged spar.
    This time I replaced the whole section. Now the third test this time with a flying wire of 1/8 S/S but not the right type. Yep failed again but this time because the swedge failed. the loading was 2000 lbs 1000 per side. It held till I did a bounce test to the wingtip. Here shows the sand bag loading on test 2 before failure each bag 50 lb. hull modification 053.jpg this next one the last test with flying wire not yet loaded. hull modification 059.jpg

    After that last failure I replaced the section again but added the 5 degree diehederal. I regret that, It does not need it,the plane and would be more stable in cross winds without it. Since the load test was not the wings fault, but a cable and swedge. I used the proper cable and proper compression and called it 4 G without further testing.
    I have read the wing parts, that have been stressed, should be discarded and new parts made .Well the middle is.
     
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  18. Feb 14, 2019 #38

    Norm Langlois

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    The time line is without the building of Float system. To this point we are metal work ,yet not.I am going to back up the time line now to building the first hull.
    hulljig1 002.jpg Typical .The hull required a jig. I made it like a canoe jig. I had already been playing with hot wire technique,
    That was also inventing a power supply . Using a standard battery charger and a dimer switch I had made small hot wire tools. More suitable for model work. Now I had some problems with much larger cuts and long wire bows. Having nickel chrome wire . the wire size was to small for large bows as well. My co-worker was also making foam cuts, with 4 ft bows he was using S/S mig wire. Though he had a real variable power supply intended for that.
    Rather than borrow it .I made from the camper converter one that worked for me. By having the dimer switch on the Ac power in I could control the dual circuit, DC output .I made my long bow from a PVC pipe and the S/S wire as well.
    I later made an AC with dimmer, but this would blow out the dimmer if started to high. Still it was the only way to get the longest wires to work.
    Last years work on the new hull I borrow the real thing. 20180720_125836.jpg
     
  19. Feb 14, 2019 #39

    Norm Langlois

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    I did not know ,how man different foam densities, there where to work with back then. The urethane come in so many. But you can't hot wire them.
    I chose polystyrene . and epoxy for the covering. With 2 lb and 1lb .I made the first hull with compartmental ,and much more like a boat hulljig1 027.jpg hulljig1 029.jpg here you see the compartments . I found that covering all those surfaces, with glass and the over all length of the hull was getting to heavy again. Hack and chop the compartments had to go the hull shortened. hull modification 002.jpg I cut out and filled the compartments with a more solid 1 lb polystyrene fill . This worked to reduce weight, but with later consequence. After the plane was flying the weak point in the cockpit cracked almost breaking off there as last years disaster did. I reinforced it with balsa wood and foam .Adding unwanted weight. hull modification 006.jpg
     
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  20. Feb 14, 2019 #40

    Norm Langlois

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    The plane flew after the rear floats were changed to these rear flt 2 006.jpg rear flt 2 004_00001.jpg This is what is flying in the Labor day videos. Though much still had to happen first . These floats were not providing horizontal stability , nor enough static [no pilot onboard ] tail was in the water. another tail boom float was added. Made from the previous round .That can be seen in the video. This was later removed when additional material was applied to those now new floats.
     
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