70% lighter battery

[n3480h1]

Pete,
Yup, we BAD. Unfortunately, our government frowns on those of us who would use aircraft to keep the coyote infestation in check by using firearms on civil aircraft. No sense of humor, I guess. :

Tom

 

[oahupilot]

So here is a comparison between the two batteries in my plane.

The original was a wpz12s agm battery built by power source
11 amp hour
250 cold cranking amp
weight 8.2 lbs
warranty for 1 year
cost $80.00

The replacement Shorai lfx18a1-bs12
18 amp hour
270 cold crank amps
weight 2.12 pounds
warranty for 2 years
cost 160 on sale

So for double the money of my original battery I lost 6 pounds of empty weight (74% reduction in weight) , gained capacity, and have more cranking amps.

 

[thomefran]

Sounds like a win win to me.

 

[wbpace]

If you have never heard of Aeroelectric Connection, you should check out Bob Nuckolls' web site at www.aeroelectric.com. Bob publishes an excellent electrical systems guide for homebuilders. I bought his manual way back around '95 when I was working on a different (and never completed) airplane. Now that I am considering building again, I looked up his site and found that you can still buy his book (just recently updated to revision 12) in paper form, buy it on CD with a bunch of other useful stuff, or even download the book for free as a PDF.

That meant that I was able to update from my old revision 8 to revision 12 for free! He had promised that when I first bought it, and he has kept his promise.

Anyway, I noticed that he had serendipitously posted an article on lithium batteries just a couple of weeks ago. You can find it at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/To_lithium_or_not_to_lithium.pdf. He has some strong opinions.

Check his site out. It has loads of useful information.

Disclaimer: I do not personally know Bob, I've never met him, and I have no financial or personal interest of any kind in his web site or business.

Bill

 

[Airskip.2010]

wbpace.......you sound like a lawyer.

 

[n3480h1]

Wow, that's a terrible thing to say. ;D


Tom

 

[oahupilot]

well I read the article and I think its way off mark. The article does not mention witch type of lithium battery chemistry BOB is referring to and just talks about problems that are associated with different types of chemistry as if they were universal across the board.

I have read some of his other articles in the past, but I find this one to be a very poorly formulated and misleading.

Here are a few points from his article that do not match reality.

"A minimum lithium battery that would crank your Lycoming might weigh in at 3 pounds and cap check at 9.2 A.H"

my battery 2.12 pounds and 18 ah

"2 years x 5 batteries gives you 10 years at a cost of ownership for 5 batteries equal to that of 1 Lithium battery."

The battery I replace cost 80 dollars new while the new lithium Iron cost 160/180, which is either double or a bit more depending if you get it on sale. So I can buy two lead acid batteries for one lithium not 5, and the lead acid only last half as long as a lithium. Over time their is no difference in the cost of ownership between lithium Iron and Lead acid.

"Suppose you don't have the second alternator and you
really want 12+ A.H of endurance bus support for alternator-out ops. Now we're talking about a $600-$700 battery. That will buy a LOT of VRLA capability"

Not true at all 180 dollars buys an 18 AH battery.

The article is dead wrong and fails to match current reality.

 

[wbpace]

Airskip - I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV. I am a software engineering manager (in the business for over 30 years). Admittedly, I do spend more time around lawyers than I used to (s/w is no longer the wild west it used to be ), as well as lots of very smart people who don't hesitate to challenge you on everything you say, so perhaps my writing style does reflect that. I just thought since I rarely post, by being up front about my relationship to Bob Nuckolls (there is none, except I bought his book), it would answer some questions before they got asked. I guess I was wrong.

BTW, I prefer Bill to wbpace. Nice to meet you.

oahupilot - I have found Bob's writings interesting in the past. As with everything that is discussed on this list (or any homebuilders list), it is just one more piece of data that the reader will need to weigh against all of the other information that is available. I just put the information out there as way to begin to introduce myself to the group. Since you disagree with it and offered a cogent rebuttal, I guess I succeeded, no?

Nice to meet you, too.

To avoid further polluting this thread with what is an off-topic discussion, if anyone has any questions about me, feel free to email me directly at wbpace(at)aol.com.

Bill

 

[Raceair]

Trivia.........Bob Nuckolls built a very, very nice Sonerai 1 many, many years ago, that I had the pleasure of working on when It was being prepped for FV racing.......Ed F.

 

[Airskip.2010]

Hey, Bill.

I was just kidding around about the disclaimer. No offense intended.

Nice to meet you, too. Welcome.

 

[phzabriskie]

Hi Bill and Hi to all of you I don't get to talk to much recently.

I bet Alex(I will let the cat out of the bag that's Oahupilot's name) has very good current information based on his job discription and building expertise,
and hearing from Ed that Bob Nuckoll's Sonerai building was many many years ago,
and from my work experiance here at Fedex Dangerous Goods working with Lithium Batteries and the many changes the Rules&Regs have gone thru in recent time,
I think that it may just be a case of technology out pacing our information.
That's why it's EXPERIMENTAL, it's an Educational experiance.
Cheers, Peace, and Bratwurst. ;D

 

[Airskip.2010]

So If I add the starter (not sure which one for HAPI) and altenator, flywheel, etc. this winter. Anyone know the approx. weight off top of your head? I'll look it up eventually, when I do my W&B, but for round numbers. I'm at max 170 lbs. So if I go to the 2-1/2 lb Lithium Iron (ion) batt, I could add the rest, possibly in turtle deck fuel tank.....useful ballast.

Any thoughts, suggestions...

Skip

 

[oahupilot]

So if I go to the 2-1/2 lb Lithium Iron (ion) batt, I could add the rest, possibly in turtle deck fuel tank.....useful ballast.

Air skip, its not an Lithium ion battery. Lithium Iron(LiFePO4 ) and lithium ion (LiPF6) are two different materials used in battery.

My battery is mounted in carbon fiber battery box just aft of the aux tank.

 

[Airskip.2010]

Thanks for the clarification. I could've sworn I saw Iron and Ion on the site you provided. I thought Lithium Iron was just a "name" for the ion batt. My bad.

 

[Mytonic]

Checking in with anyone using a lithium iron phosphate battery, How well has this battery held up over the years, any issues, what charging system do you have and how well does it maintain the battery? Thanks John

 

[kennyw]

There's several Van's guys that I know who swear by the EarthX LiFe batteries. One guy I know for sure is using a battery that looks like a motorcycle battery, and weighs less than 5lbs as the primary/starting battery on his 200hp+ IO370 powered RV-7 with a full glass cockpit.

He switched to EarthX because he was tired of repeated issues with his Odyssey PC680 (AGM) battery failing.

He has a "smart" charger dohicky that he keeps plugged into the wall when not flying. It keep the EarthX battery's individual cells "balanced" and fully charged. If you let the cell voltage drop too low, or if you over-charge the thing, it can cause problems. The best way to aviod is to just use the "smart charger" all the time.

 

[smokyray]

Guys,
My friend and long-time fellow RV builder/pilot "DR" R&R'd his Odyssey PC680 in lieu of an Earth X in his RV6 last year. It lasted 2 months before he switched back. His reasons were numerous, but starting or the lack thereof on numerous occasions was a deal breaker. This by no means rules them out for me, I just have had excellent service from my Odyssey batteries in both my RV's, my Lawnmower and my Toyota Tacoma.

That said, I purchased one of the first PC680's off the Odyssey factory line for my RV4 back in 2001. That battery is still going strong with the new owner after 1000 hours.
Not knowing much about AGM technology, I called Odyssey customer service back then as to the care and feeding of their new battery. As Kenny mentioned, One of the big no-no's for AGM and Lithium batteries is charging. AGM and Lithium batteries don't accept a charge anything like a dry or wet cell battery. Trickle charging (2 Amps) is the only method that won't damage an AGM battery. Odyssey specific "smart" chargers are out there but they simply bring the battery up to max charge then shut themselves off and on accordingly and are expensive. You can do the exact same thing by following the charge tables on the Odyssey website and shutting off the charger yourself. I would bet that anyone who has had problems with an Odyssey battery didn't read the charge/care tables. Another key item is temperature. The tables show that long term storage can be up to 2 years at 77 degrees F or longer at lower temps. I deployed to Iraq twice while the Odyssey 680 was in my RV4 and after 4 months each time she started right up. If it showed less that 12V I would trickle charge it up to 12.4 and stop, per the tables.

Properly cared for, an Odyssey AGM battery is what I believe the best solution for a 12V lightweight aircraft electrical system. I have one in my current RV6X that after 6 years is also going strong.
http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-TM-002_1214.pdf

However comma, in 994SP's lightweight (non-starter) Diehl Case 12V system I installed a UB12801 made right right down the road from me in Lewisville, TX. It's amp hour draw, weight, cost and robust record spoke for itself. It will even start my 35HP Kawasaki powered Hustler Raptor Zero-turn mower. They also make AGM batteries very competitive (Amazon) to the Odyssey.

http://www.upgi.com/media/2965/sealed-lead-acid-batteries-317.pdf

V/R
Smokey

 

[Mytonic]

Thanks for the info guys,, I researched Earthx batteries and I'm leaning towards one. ETX18B has built in over discharge protection, overcharge protection, self balancing, Short circuit protection,Excessive cranking protection, just have to be careful what charger you connect to it, the Battery Tender JR has a maintenance mode voltage of 13.3V which is compatible, whereas the original Battery Tender or Battery Tender Plus has a maintenance 13.2V which is too low for a lithium battery. Also the size and weight is the major interest.

 

[kennyw]

...
However comma, in 994SP's lightweight (non-starter) Diehl Case 12V system I installed a UB12801 made right right down the road from me in Lewisville, TX. It's amp hour draw, weight, cost and robust record spoke for itself....

That little battery, and the Diehl case alternator set up is "the bee's knees" for our little Sonerais!

 

[soneraii]

I'm not going to fly behind a Lithium battery.

I agree with all that Smokey said about the Odyssey I have had excellent service with them in two RVs and a homebuilt Cub. The one in the Cub is 7 years old and still cranks like new.

In my Sonerai One I have an Odyssey 545 versus the 680. The 545 is quite a bit smaller than the 680 and turns over the 2180 just fine. It holds a charge well but occasionally hook it up to a Battery Tender just for good measure, no problems. It has been in the Sonerai for 3 years.

The Odysseys can be mounted in any orientation, don't spill, don't leak. My 545 is mounted on it's side in a simple frame made of aluminum angle and secured with one of those half inch wide mega wire ties from Home Depot. The 545 is mounted in my left cheek cowl just aft of the firewall, fits great, great use of that space.