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Thread: Cantilever parasol wings?

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Maybe not a dime, but a dollar...

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    Registered User Victor Bravo's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Doing airplanes and talking about airplanes can rightfully be considered two separate hobbies. Both of them are worthwhile and of great interest to me.

    Right at this particular moment my financial budget for building an E-AB is pretty low (does Aircraft Spruce accept Food Stamps?). So participating on HBA and keeping my brain active is a very high value to me. I get free education, hang around like-minded people, I get to meet smarter folks than me, and sometimes I get to have my own experience and knowledge be of value to others.

    If I was losing money (or missing out on income) by participating in this forum, then that would be another story. If I had an active E-AB project in the shop and spending time yapping here was taking time away from that, then of course that would be costing me something.

    As far as that little Fokker, there's comething there worth pursuing IMHO. It should be cantilever, the original one was, and as has been mentioned there are hundreds of other strut-braced and wire-braced little airplanes. If the Fokker had a wing fold mechanism similar to the Pou du Ciel, that would add a significant feature. A center section that would fit into a standard trailer, and the outer panels fold up and over onto the center section. After whatever engineering and fastener shear loads and fabrication are completed, it represents a very elegant solution on a daily storage basis.
    Last edited by Victor Bravo; March 12th, 2019 at 02:40 PM. Reason: sp
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    I spend a lot of my time here in-between productive times; and whinging about wings and fussing over fuselages is a better way to spend my downtime (aka an appreciable portion of my day at the office until I can leave my dayjob) than watching re-runs of Hot Ones on YouTube. (and to be fair who says I can't do both?)

    Plus once one is into a project it doesn't mean the 'idea brain' doesn't just stop, satiated. I find that the deeper I get into a project, the harder the other what-ifs start coming up. Once the what-ifs are solved on what I'm working on, the idea bran is still amped up on coffee and churning in the background: "Yes I need to solve how to make a fixture for my center section and decide on the proper order of operations for when to drill the ribs and whatever other tasks are at hand; but oh wow I'd really like a Sperry Messenger replica and a matching Fokker to share a hanger space with it." Meanwhile there's a few other idea brains working in whole other fields, figuring out how I'm going to build a replica paintball StG-44 and Remmington 700 after I wrap up on my line of AK-47 replicas, for one example.

    Ideas come fast and easy at any rate. And that's good, cuz sometimes those tangental ideas lead back to a solution that you need right now. Or point out that its time to pivot.

    But that said, I'm not wanting for actual projects: nor future projects for the time being. If someone is really trying to figure out what to do, maybe some discussion is helpful in any case.
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    Registered User Toobuilder's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Fair enough, all. I overlooked this was in the "hangar" (aka Facebook) area. No technical solution required/desired.

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    I have mentioned multiple times a cantilevered parasol using Rutan composite wing and 4130 fuselage with no traction. You essentially build the spar and add the airfoil foam parts and glass it all. Simplistic explanation but the simplest wing for someone who does not want to build, along with Parts count and jigging. Time wise it’s a wash with any other building style except the one called buying. The Rutan spar is very much the same usage idea as the Fokker box spars. Carve the platform you like. Having built some RC EV/DVIIIs, it’s a devil of a little plane; seems to be the predominant opinion, RC and Replicas. It does not like to fly slow. It is no cute Cub of a plane;the Dr1 is much more a accessible handeling airplane.

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    Registered User Tiger Tim's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Quote Originally Posted by TFF View Post
    I have mentioned multiple times a cantilevered parasol using Rutan composite wing and 4130 fuselage with no traction.
    I don’t see the draw of that being specifically a parasol but I’ve daydreamed about a similar scheme that ends in a replica Waco SRE with a M-14 or something.

    As for the OP’s little Fokker faux fighter, I like that a lot as-is. Just suck it up and do the wing in wood as Platz would have wanted. Being a Fokker I bet it had thin plywood ribs so what you do is start with foam dummy ribs at each span-wise station on one side and hot wire them to shape in one go, then remove and use as templates for your wood ribs.

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    One thing to remember is that humans have to fit. A 3/4 Fokker DVIII is more or less a full sized V.40, in the fuselage.

    A composite wing, a glass version of a wood wing, is an option for those who prefer that technique...but.

    What we have here is a plane that ironically is too easy to build fast & reasonably priced.
    The engine is actually available.
    I'd bet lunch at Red Robin Mr. Baslee would be happy to sell a Fokker/Morane ( fuselage/wing ) kit, and the biggest difference is struts vs. True cantilever.

    You could be building in ten weeks. Flying 2 months later.

    But that isn't fun/challenging enough, so instead the carbon fiber pressurized version using an imaginary engine with 3, 50 cubic inch S&S hog cylinders and a glass cockpit will be the subject of speculation through 2034. ( when someone will love the OP idea and start it all again )

    I'd love a classic looking racer, Laird Solution, or a Pete..... But engines are going to break my budget for them. This cute thing? Serious potential for affordable and reality.

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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Aircraft Spruce offers the materials kits for the VW-powered, steel-tube, wood, and fabric Pober Pixie for about $7,500. That does *not* include engine, prop, wheels/tires, instruments, fabric, paint, etc. I'd estimate total cost completely finished and flying between $12,000 (DIY 1600 cc VW conversion from rebuilt long block, bare bones instruments, cheap wheel/tires, no brakes, latex paint over generic fabric) and $18,000 (new firewall forward Hummel 1835 cc package, nice instruments, nice wheels/tires, brakes, certified-quality fabric and finishing). Of course, salvaging the engine, wheel, instruments, and even wood/steel from another project could reduce those costs.

    A V-40-inspired project would save a little in steel, wood, fabric, and paint just because it would be smaller all over but a 1200 cc half VW is more expensive than a DIY 1600 cc VW and about the same price as an 1835 cc VW. The 3-cylinder Verner (while so much cooler) is about $3,000 more than even the 1835 cc VW. That suggests to me that a V-40-inspired project would run from about the same as the minimalist Pixie up to more than the Pixie with the radial.

    One possible saving grace is that the original Anzani engine in the V.40 was quite heavy (hence the short nose) and the D.VIII lineage means that a rotary-style horseshoe cowl would look great. You could hide a 35 hp industrial V-twin spinning a big wooden prop through an Ace redrive for about the same price as the DIY 1600 cc VW. That would get you down to about $12,000 for the project or maybe a little less if you were careful.
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    The Pixie can fly with a VW, but even the prototype converted to A-65. It is not a little airplane. It’s just a fancy Ace with updated construction and great drawn plans. I like the full span ailerons. Maybe a 2L VW Or Corvair. Oshkosh is plenty flat to handle absurdly low horsepower airplanes. All you have to do is get over the trees. 145 Lycoming Would be nice

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Quote Originally Posted by TFF View Post
    I have mentioned multiple times a cantilevered parasol using Rutan composite wing and 4130 fuselage with no traction. You essentially build the spar and add the airfoil foam parts and glass it all. Simplistic explanation but the simplest wing for someone who does not want to build, along with Parts count and jigging. Time wise its a wash with any other building style except the one called buying. The Rutan spar is very much the same usage idea as the Fokker box spars. Carve the platform you like.
    The composite wing and tail surfaces combined with a tube and fabric fuselage is a good idea for a simple parasol wing homebuilt airplane. Make it possible to swing the wing to align with the fuselage and it would stow in a smaller area. If to be designed as a two seater and 80hp engine I guess the proportions will be much like the Slingsby motor Tutor.

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    One idea that keeps coming back to me is having at least two versions of this design.

    The first version plays up the retro style in the spirit of the Flitzer with very Fokker-like lines and the old-fashioned crossbar landing gear and rounded wingtips and tail surfaces. I even have some inklings of a fictional back story involving a Dutch former Fokker employee moving to the USA and creating a design based on the V.40 as an even lighter and cheaper competitor to the Sperry Messenger. The V.40 would look great olive drab with the big star roundels and tail flash of the U.S.A.A.S.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The second version has squared off wingtips, angular rudder and elevator lines, spring aluminum gear (maybe even trigear), and an enclosed cockpit as a simple sport plane in the spirit of the many "modern" biplanes with full canopies.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I am still debating the engine question.... I love the look and sound of the Verner 3VW but a 1600-1835 cc VW would actually be a lot cheaper and there is enough of a weight difference that it would be hard to accommodate both.

    Hmmm....
    Last edited by cluttonfred; March 14th, 2019 at 08:48 AM.
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    Registered User cluttonfred's Avatar
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    A little more food for thought...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    PS--These are roughly to scale by the way: 8.35 m/7.0 m/6.2 m wingspan respectively.
    Last edited by cluttonfred; March 17th, 2019 at 03:48 AM.
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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    I'd long chosen the paint job of the U.S. Army Signal Corps, McCook field experimental engineering unit for any WW1 or slightly later design.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCook_Field

    https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/mccook-field/

    A cross between the Skunk Works and Area 51, McCook was the home of too many firsts to list here.

    Radio controlled cars, tanks, & planes. Radio navigation gear. Pressurized high altitude flight. Race planes. And a collection of foreign aircraft, including the Fokker D.VII & D.VIII, Spads, SE5A, Bristol Fighter, etc. All to be evaluated and improved to advance U.S. Aviation.

    So, tricolor tail stripes, OD, or blue fuselage, wings any color, depending on the whim of the original manufacturer and the repair shop colors at hand, sometimes chosen for high visibility...Or max stealth.

    The horizontal red & white rudder stripes and yellow wings were a later Air Corps scheme, but from black & white photos of the Experimentals there, nearly anything goes.

    As a McCook field experimental, you can also avoid using foreign markings that may offend the historically challenged, who don't know the difference between a swastika or a Maltese Cross, and are offended by anything in a massively ignorant herd beast way.

    Also, German lozenge print fabric is very expensive. Masking & painting lozenge camo is too much work, when you can save pounds and time by just clear coating UV blocking silver, and stencil Signal Corps information blocks on the fuselage. And don't forget the tricolor tails. From front to back, red, white, blue. ( blue, white, red is French..... and very early U.S. )

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Or you can paint in flashy race plane colors. A V.40 replica is perfect for an imaginary Burbank to Catalina or Shangri-la to Xanadu race.

    And by golly, they already look steampunk!

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    Re: Cantilever parasol wings?

    Does anyone know why the V.40 rudder was almost comically small by today's standards?
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