Shop/Build questions

Discussion in 'Workshop Tips and Secrets / Tools' started by MichaelC, Sep 17, 2008.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Sep 17, 2008 #1

    MichaelC

    MichaelC

    MichaelC

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Wausau WI
    I'm going to be building a VP1 over the winter. The basement in the house I'm currently renting is very cold in the winter. The upstairs for that matter is never what you'd call toasty unless I want to spend a fortune heating it. I have a programmable thermostat and the house is usually kept at 62 degrees when I'm at work and at night. The basement is at least 10 degrees less than that. When I get home from work and turn up the heat the basement still doesn't get very warm unless I really crank up the heat and then it's too hot upstairs.

    I'm considering building in the very large living room (hardwood floors) since I don't see the building process generating a huge amount of sawdust. Any major power tool use to fabricate bulkheads, ribs, etc. will be in the basement. I could build in the basement (pretty sure I'll be able to get the fuse and wing out afterward, I'll verify first!) but I'd need to supply some heat.

    First question is, what if any effects are there to building a wood aircraft in an environment where the temperature varies a lot? One thing I'm concerned about is epoxy properly curing when the overnight temp (in the dead of winter especially) is 50 degrees or even less. Will this have any effect on the wood structure.

    Second, assuming the temperature variance won't be a problem, can a propane heater be used in a basement safely? I found a heater at the local Fleet Farm that is designed to be used indoors. Can these be used indoors safely and if so what kind of ventilation is required? I would probably use the heater to warm up the basement and then shut it off until is was needed again.



    Mike
     
  2. Sep 17, 2008 #2

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    500
    Location:
    Indiana
    Like this one?

    [​IMG]




    Those 'blue-flame' and 'comfort-glo' heaters can be used indoors.

    My bro-n-law used one as primary heat last year when his furnace went down. No problems.
     
  3. Sep 17, 2008 #3

    MichaelC

    MichaelC

    MichaelC

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Wausau WI
  4. Sep 17, 2008 #4

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    500
    Location:
    Indiana
    Dont know about that one... says 'ventilation required'. The one i showed is available in a portable model and was used indoors during winter.. no windows open.
     
  5. Sep 17, 2008 #5

    MichaelC

    MichaelC

    MichaelC

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Wausau WI
    I checked out those units and it says they do require adequate ventilation.

    At this point I'm inclined to just do my building upstairs. I have a feeling that using any kind of gas fueled heater is going to cost as much as cranking up the thermostat. The one I looked at says it needs at least a 100lb tank.




    Mike
     
  6. Sep 17, 2008 #6

    Joe Kidd

    Joe Kidd

    Joe Kidd

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Tennessee
    I have a wall mounted blue flame propane gas heater mounted on my basement wall, using fans and a dehumidifier for air circulation and moisture control, works very well and maintains a constant temperature. The things to remember is the blue flame heaters are creating convection heat much as does a central heat and air conditioning unit while the red flame type of heaters create radiant heat whereby the objects in front of the heater are heated up.
    Go ahead and do yourself a favor and put some dry lock or dam tight paint sealant on your concrete block walls and then install a blue flame heater, you’ll be very surprised at how much nicer the basement is afterwards. The blue flame heater I have does not require outside ventilation and considering the degree of air leakage and exchange in the average house I cannot see it ever being a problem .Hope this helps you to make a decision.:grin:
     
  7. Sep 18, 2008 #7

    Dana

    Dana

    Dana

    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    8,546
    Likes Received:
    2,962
    Location:
    CT, USA
    The propane heaters come in two flavors, "vent free" and "direct vent". The vent free heaters exhaust directly into the room... they burn very clean so the exhaust is water vapor and carbon dioxide. Adequate ventilation is required, for obvious reasons. If moisture is a problem, a vent free heater will make it worse. Since all heat goes into the room, they're 100% efficient.

    The direct vent heaters mount on an outside wall, and exhaust outside. They're slightly less efficient, but you have no combustion byproducts going into the room.

    A friend of mine has one of the vent free heaters in his garage. It heats it more than adequately, and the propane (not sure what size tank) lasts all season, though he doesn't use it all the time.

    -Dana

    Q. What's the difference between Mechanical and Civil Engineers?

    A. Mechanical Engineers build weapons; Civil Engineers build targets.
     
  8. Sep 18, 2008 #8

    MichaelC

    MichaelC

    MichaelC

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2008
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Wausau WI
    I did read on that site that in Wisconsin the vent free types are not allowed to be used in houses built after sometime in the 80's (can't remember exactly when). Makes sense, the newer the house is the tigher it is. This house was built much before that so as you said, shouldn't be much of a problem.



    Mike
     
  9. Sep 18, 2008 #9

    Allan

    Allan

    Allan

    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    The following comes from the West Systems web site.

    At 70°F, T-88 will harden in 6-8 hours and will reach functional
    strength in 24 hours. T-88 has been specifically formulated to
    cure as low as 35°F without reduction in strength; this cure will
    require approximately one week.
     
  10. Oct 11, 2008 #10

    Becca~T

    Becca~T

    Becca~T

    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Oregon
    I have a 24x24ft hobby shop and run 2 Coleman black-cats connected to a 30lb LP cylinder and a reducer from the large tank to the space heaters.

    Provides comfortable warmth whether indoors or in a tent

    3,000 BTU output operates up to 7 hours from one 16.4 oz. propane cylinder (not included)

    Compact legs integrate into collar for easy storage

    Portable easy-to-grip handle makes heater easy to carry

    U.S. Patent 6,213,761

    and http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5038A800&categoryid=3000
    http://www.tweetys.com/lpgascylinders.aspx
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2008
  11. Oct 11, 2008 #11

    PTAirco

    PTAirco

    PTAirco

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,476
    Likes Received:
    994
    Location:
    Corona CA
    This thread reminds me how lucky I am - I more or less live in my workshop for the duration of my two projects! (Just don't tell the property manager...). A small industrial unit; 20' by 40' , 16' ceiling, bathroom, kitchenette, office, computer, all my books.
    And it's in Corona, CA, so it never gets cold enough to really need a heater, but it can get hot. And best of all - it's two miles down the road from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty!

    After many years in Britain, trying to work in a small plywood shed with only a small generator for power and no heat and having to wait six weeks for orders from AS&S to arrive - it's airplane heaven here.
     
  12. Oct 12, 2008 #12

    gschuld

    gschuld

    gschuld

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Toms River, New Jersey
    Michael,

    I have a few comments from another perspective. I own a few investment properties. If I dropped by one of my houses to check in on a tennant and when they opened the door I saw a living room with a half built fuselage of a home built airplane in there surrounded by workbenches, an epoxy station, and tons of small hand tools, drills, etc I would be rather upset to say the least:tired:. If it was in my favorite original lathe and plaster walled 1930 house that I spent untold amounts of time restoring myself, I would probably have simply gone back home and returned with a loaded 12 guage and...

    Then again, I live in a suburb like setting in a very nice area of the New Jersey coast. Wisconsin may as well be on the moon as a reference. If you live within a close proximity to neighbors and will be making enough noise for them to hear you, there may be a very good chance that your landlord may pay a visit in response to an annoyed neighbor. Enter the 12 guage situation... If you live in a rural setting and your landlord is VERY unlikely to drop by for any reason, I would still STRONGLY suggest that you keep to the basement if you are sure that you will be able to extract the assembled plane sections.

    It is very likely that your landlord's insurance policy does/will not cover shop type activities in designated living spaces, ask me how I know:nervous:. In the basement, assuming that it is not a finished basement that could be damaged by the act of airplane construction, you should be fine legally. Of course, it would be best if you got an OK ahead of time by the landlord. Then as long as you don't make too much noise, you should be OK. I would suggest that you not bring any fuel powered internal combustion engines of any sort into the house. Fire insurance will generally not cover any fire claim if there are any engines or flamable fuels stored in the house. At least that is common here. This includes weed wackers, chain saws, 2 galln gas can, etc. So if you brought your airplane engine into the living room it would most likely be a big no no:para:.

    Sorry to be such a stick in the mud here, just trying to help constructively. Don't get me wrong, I have built several small boats in the basement of my first house, and a DN iceboat mostly in my old living room. I spent 10 years building custom wooden boats for a living and had to play when I got home too. Luckily, I did own the house at the time though so I didn't feel the need to ask anyone if it was OK;). If you build only in your basement, your landlord will not likely find out about it unless he has a maintenance reason to go down there, if you don't want to tell him. If you build in your living room, most likely the neighborhood word will get out that some nut is building a plane inside their house:roll:. Trust me, that is way too "out there" for rumors not to get going fast(It's cool, but in a renegade sort of way). My "living room" iceboat project was the talk of the town for a while there for some reason. Keeping the rumor mill from the landlord may be a challenge. Regardless, building is messy. I imagine that boatbuilding is WAY more or a mess related disaster than most types of airplane building, but even so, it is hard not to have have the surrounding areas of the shop receive some collateral damage associated with the build. Doing this in an unfinished concrete floored and walled basement is infinitely safer in that regard than a finished hardwood floored living room.

    Heating units are available to temporarily heat a space for only the hours that you are working in it. I used to used a small electric driven kerosene tube heater with a bult in electric thermostat. I plugged the heater into an outlet that was turned on and off by the same switch that powered the overhead lights. This way, when you go down to work, you turn on the lights and the heater comes on automatically and levels off at and maintains your preset temperature. More importantly, it automatically turns off when you shut off the lights and leave. Otherwise, it is WAY too easy to forget and leave the heat on, ask me how I know:ponder:.

    In all seriousness, I want to encourage you to build here:). Hope my 19 cents helps some.

    George
     
  13. Oct 13, 2008 #13

    inventing_man

    inventing_man

    inventing_man

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2008
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maybe with approval from your LL you could install foil faced polyico board on the basement walls and ceiling. Its will reflect 90% of any heat generated back into the space . A few quartz stand lights would probably warm it up fairly nice for you. Those electric oil heating radiators work well , has thermostat control, and is safe. No combustion or fume worries. Thats what I'm using. Grate for warming up and drying out the fire wood gloves . Just pitch them right on it . No worries
     
  14. Oct 14, 2008 #14

    ahs437

    ahs437

    ahs437

    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ventless gas heaters are cheapest to run on a BTU basis as 100% of heat remains in room and they are better at effciient combustion. Ventless and vented both consume oxygen, so a tight room could show an oxygen diffencieny but the heater typicallyhas an oxy sensor. Ventless gives off carbon monoxide, but at low enough concentrations that it is probably not an issue if the room isn't too tight (see mfg. guidlines), but I wouldn't operate one without a CO detector in the room. Even low concentrations for long periods is harmful... real harmful. The biggest drawback (as I see it) is that the efficient combustion of propane yeilds CO2 and water. Run the thing for a long enough time in the winter and they make a lot of water which will hit 100% RH and condense on windows walls etc. I think they're best for short run heating and asthetics.
     
  15. Oct 24, 2008 #15

    Offcenter

    Offcenter

    Offcenter

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Mike, I have something else for you to consider. Does your house have hot air heat? The reason I ask....I helped my brother do a woodworking project in his basement, right next to the hot air furnace. I found out later that the sawdust screwed up the heater and it required a service call to clean it. ....and my brother was mad at me. Go figure. LOL!!!
    Make sure you isolate your cutting and sawdust making from the area where
    the heater is.
     
  16. Oct 26, 2008 #16

    gschuld

    gschuld

    gschuld

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Toms River, New Jersey
    MichealC,

    Are you still out there? I apologize if I came off like a jerk in my previous post. I was in a fairly bad mood as I had just discovered that a tennant of mine just skipped town "a bit:lick:" behind on his rent and he pretty much trashed the place to boot. I had just finished redoing the whole place; new kitchen, new bathrooms, the whole nine yards. Sorry if I took some of my angst out on you:ermm:!

    Anyway, I hope you were not discouraged from posting. It would be great if you can build your plane, and I'd be happy to help any way I can, and with a refreshed mood and attitude:nervous:

    George
     
  17. Oct 26, 2008 #17

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    500
    Location:
    Indiana
    Finding good tenants is a PITA... but I have good ones now. Keep at it, they are out there.
     
  18. Oct 26, 2008 #18

    gschuld

    gschuld

    gschuld

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2007
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Toms River, New Jersey
    Jim,

    Thanks for the support:). I've been around this game for a while now, but occasionally it still gets under my skin. What can you do...

    George
     
  19. Nov 20, 2008 #19

    Flying Monkey

    Flying Monkey

    Flying Monkey

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, it can't be. Unless you provide an external source of combustion air-and a code ( one that isn't going to leak at a fitting in your house-not the crap one on that tank ) fuel line to the tank outside.

    10 cubic feet of air per btu. The propane heater in your link :

    needs 180, 000 cubic feet of air per hour-or the incomplete combustion of that appliance starts emitting carbon monoxide into your living area-which is why permanent propane heat installations have external combustion air brought in to the appliance.

    You might get away with it ( survive)-lots of people do-but potentially when your gas furnace/gas hot water tank kick in-also demanding combustion air-this door or that is closed-lots of people die in their sleep/get sick too.

    A natural gas line shouldn't be pressurized over 7 inches water column inside a building ( which is why the regulator should be outside ( although older installations can have the regulator grandfathered to remain inside, and vented to the outside )-and propane shouldn't be pressurized to over 11 inches water column inside a building ( because a leak can pool on the floor and if it reaches 2-10% =furnace pilot/other ignition source= Boom.

    Use an electrically heated ( plug in ) oil-filled register-one of those small ones.

    I'd guess with wood construction in a basement-aside from your valid comfort issue-varying humidity would be more your enemy.

    Dealing With Workshop Humidity

    I built wood stuff in my then-unfinished basement too ( not that good at it :)
    and I had a similar problem-but I just tin-bashed more heat ducts in from the existing natural gas furnace-you may consider asking your landlord for permission to add one duct to your proposed work area ( taken from a heat duct)-if the basements' unfinished and has a natural gas furnace. It's probably cheaper than buying a heater if you're able to work near existing ductwork.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2008
  20. Nov 20, 2008 #20

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    500
    Location:
    Indiana
    Speaking of which, I'm am pretty sure your landlord wouldn't mind if you bought the cheaper (save money) styrofoam panels and insulated your basement walls. These would have to be left in place after your move since they would be concidered as an addition to the dwelling. The 2" 4x8 panels glued with Liquid Nails for Styrofoam (or similar) would work just fine and really warm up that basement. A carpet on the floor would work with the styrofoam by providing a 'thermal barrier'. If your uncomfortable, ask the landlord, but the answer will most likely be yes. While your at it, ask if another vent could be made in the ductwork as suggested. A 4"x12" vent would prolly do.
     

Share This Page

arrow_white