eVTOL getting close to Type Certificate?

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by BBerson, Jan 18, 2020.

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  1. Jan 18, 2020 #1

    BBerson

    BBerson

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  2. Jan 18, 2020 #2

    Mad MAC

    Mad MAC

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    Hmmm Abbott aerospace ran a series of articles on this market sector in their newsletters

    I wonder if the following from one of the Abbott articles might also apply to the FAA (if there is are currently no specific regs, then thinking about them could constitute significant progress)
    "paints a negative picture for all of the urban mobility projects for which the regulations have yet to be written. This is not my intent. In order to force the creation of these new regulations these vehicles have to be invented to force a regulatory response. As I have written before, I am very impressed with the inventiveness and willingness of these programs and their investors to take risk. I am concerned that some of the programs who believe they are in the certification phase of their program might believe their own publicity.

    If you are waiting for the regulations to be written or published you cannot have started your certification program and you cannot have completed your design."

    https://www.abbottaerospace.com/whats-new/aerial-urban-mobility-project-global-rankings/
    https://www.abbottaerospace.com/whats-new/aerial-urban-mobility-rankings-follow-up/
     
    pictsidhe likes this.
  3. Jan 18, 2020 #3

    BBerson

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    Yes, I think the FAA expects the formal applications before they write the rules. But I think these craft should be flying experimental for at least a few years (perhaps decades) before any type certificate and sales.
    The history of VTOL is unexpected disaster.

    (can't find link above)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  4. Jan 18, 2020 #4

    Jambo

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    Workhorse Surefly. Manned, if chained down, and this was in 2018, Im fairly certain they have flown manned and untethered

    Airbus A3. Its to my knowledge not flown with a human, but for these types of aircraft not really important

    Kitty Hawk Heaviside if you want the promo type video.

    All within the US.

    In short, eVTOL is advancing fast and are rapidly approaching practical designs, though the regulations and economics are likely far below silicon valley type projections(looking at you uber)
     
  5. Jan 18, 2020 #5

    BBerson

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    To me there is difference if it is safe for humans. (humans inside the craft, and secondly, humans on the ground)
    Not there yet. The SureFly promised a flight at Airventure but didn't do it.
     
  6. Jan 18, 2020 #6

    Tiger Tim

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    I would imagine one reason could be that the developers already have customers so showing their progress to you and me just risks the competition getting a leg up.
     
  7. Jan 18, 2020 #7

    BBerson

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    They don't seem shy about showing the products at Oshkosh. Airbus had the thing in a glass walled tent.
    They just don't actually fly them.
     
  8. Jan 18, 2020 #8

    Tiger Tim

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    Fair enough. I hadn’t been to OSH in a couple years.
     
  9. Jan 18, 2020 #9

    Hephaestus

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    Could be the insurance company saying no as much as not being able to get FAA permission.

    Its one thing to have automation running over desolate unpopulated areas - it's something totally different to operate at oshkosh...

    Just the risk of a NORDO ultralight doing something stupid ahead of it...
     
  10. Jan 18, 2020 #10

    crusty old aviator

    crusty old aviator

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    Bringing a corporately developed prototype to the EAA Convention in Oshkosh is not easy. You don’t “just show up.” EAA’s insurance requirements are quite onerous, for starters.

    One flying USA eVTOL is from BETA Technologies in Burlington, VT: https://www.beta.team/. Their first flight was in 2018...and she’s still flying and gathering data.
     
  11. Jan 19, 2020 #11

    BBerson

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    Is there an insurance requirement for an individual experimental homebuilder arriving at Airventure?
     
  12. Jan 19, 2020 #12

    crusty old aviator

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    No: individuals “just show up” (or don’t if they keep hitting weather on the way there). Fortunately, EAA has yet to reach that level of paranoia where they need you to email them proof of insurance, with EAA named as an additional insured, naturally, a week before convention just to be allowed to fly in and park, let alone being eligible for judging. In the ultralight area, you have to fly your plane there in order to be eligible for judging, as so many are trailered in and assembled, but not flown.
     
  13. Jan 19, 2020 #13

    BBerson

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    That's why I think someone needs to "just show up" in a VTOL.
    Until that happens this whole thing about certification is absurd.
     
  14. Jan 19, 2020 #14

    TFF

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    Finding someone with a powered lift license would be necessary. You fly one in and you won’t deny attention. One of the first to say hi would be about ten FAA friends. The duck’s ducks better be in a row.
     
  15. Jan 19, 2020 #15

    BBerson

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    Sure, but if it can't legally fly as an experimental into Oshkosh then how can it get type certificated?
    When has anything ever been type certificated first without years of first flying around with an experimental exhibition or experimental research and development certificate? The Voyager flew into Airventure with an experimental certificate just like everything Burt designed.

    The Beta company (above link) got an exemption for the powered lift rating.
    An ultralight doesn't need any paperwork. Yet none flew in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  16. Jan 19, 2020 #16

    TFF

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    It flew in. A DAR or FAA person signed the paperwork. Can’t fly in before, along with the phase flights. As experimental amateur built anything is possible. For a company with the intent to sell, EAB will get challenged as the wrong cert. For a company to just show off like Burt, they will be ok. I’m sure with Spaceship One they straddled the line on the ok side from experience with dealing with the system. Just like racing, everyone appreciates a loophole or inventive way to cheat; its known it will get closed down.

    All these companies have investors that they need to please. They can’t hide if you keep jumping out on social media. Built in a shed until finished with no notoriety always goes further. Better to be under the radar and make them deal with you under existing rules. Asking for rules to be made to fit you, is always asking for it.
     
  17. Jan 19, 2020 #17

    BBerson

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    I am asking how any of these things can come year after year, show in the static displays and get room in the air conditioned innovation center and then one was even sent and accepted to the EAA museum. Yet none have even flown at Airventure.
    It's a 100 billion fraud.
     
  18. Jan 19, 2020 #18

    BJC

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    EAA Airventure display space is for sale. It would appear that the only qualifiers are that the stacks of cash be tall and green and gray.

    Lots of precedence, pillows for sale, Terrafugia on display, ICON A5 donated to EAA, then immediately taken back, charging for airshow viewing space, etc.

    BJC
     
  19. Jan 19, 2020 #19

    BBerson

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    Not just EAA.
    The hysteria seems to have infected the entire eVTOL promotion industry, NASA, FAA, Vertical Flight Society, media....
     

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