N Number Location

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TXFlyGuy

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As a number of Titan Mustangs have the N Number located just below, and near the forward edge of the horizontal stabilizer, what do the Regs state on location?

We have ours in this same area, but I can't find anything that says we can or cannot do this, other than 3 inches high.

Note the photo...
P1050057.JPG
 

TXFlyGuy

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How do you explain so many T-51 Mustangs flying with the registration under the horizontal stabilizer?

The reg that I'm reading is this:

(b) A small U.S.-registered aircraft built at least 30 years ago or a U.S.-registered aircraft for which an experimental certificate has been issued under § 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for operation as an exhibition aircraft or as an amateur-built aircraft and which has the same external configuration as an aircraft built at least 30 years ago may be operated without displaying marks in accordance with §§ 45.21 and 45.23 through 45.33 if:

(1) It displays in accordance with § 45.21(c) marks at least 2 inches high on each side of the fuselage or vertical tail surface consisting of the Roman capital letter “N” followed by:

(i) The U.S. registration number of the aircraft; or

(ii) The symbol appropriate to the airworthiness certificate of the aircraft (“C”, standard; “R”, restricted; “L”, limited; or “X”, experimental) followed by the U.S. registration number of the aircraft; and

(2) It displays no other mark that begins with the letter “N” anywhere on the aircraft, unless it is the same mark that is displayed under paragraph (b)(1) of this section.

While this states external configuration, that does not mean size, or dimensions.
 

Toobuilder

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I think you are going to have a hard time convincing the Feds that your sub scale Mustang is a replica. It has the same external configuration as my RV -8 (which also has stars and bars and invasion stripes), but I'm not about to claim an exemption from the FAR on this basis.

If other T-51 guys are doing it, they might be doing it under the radar and could get violated on a ramp check.
 

mcrae0104

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How do you explain so many T-51 Mustangs flying with the registration under the horizontal stabilizer?
Explanation: lots of people break the speed limit; this does not amount to the government condoning such behavior.

The AC says it goes in front of the LE of the HS. Your DAR, like your local highway patrol officer, may let you get away with something else. He's probably got bigger fish to fry.
 

Wanttaja

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How do you explain so many T-51 Mustangs flying with the registration under the horizontal stabilizer?
People ignorant of Part 45, or people who don't bother to comply with the FARs, coupled with lack of enforcement action by the FAA.

§ 45.25 Location of marks on fixed-wing aircraft.
(a) The operator of a fixed-wing aircraft must display the required marks on either the vertical tail surfaces or the sides of the fuselage, except as provided in § 45.29(f).

(b) The marks required by paragraph (a) of this section must be displayed as follows:
...
(2) If displayed on the fuselage surfaces, horizontally on both sides of the fuselage between the trailing edge of the wing and the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. However, if engine pods or other appurtenances are located in this area and are an integral part of the fuselage side surfaces, the operator may place the marks on those pods or appurtenances.


Just because no one gets busted for it doesn't make it legal.

Ron Wanttaja
 

Wanttaja

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I think you are going to have a hard time convincing the Feds that your sub scale Mustang is a replica. It has the same external configuration as my RV -8 (which also has stars and bars and invasion stripes), but I'm not about to claim an exemption from the FAR on this basis.
Wait five years. The RV-8 is almost 30 years old. :)

Ron Wanttaja
 

TerryM76

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And the last item in the advisory circular says to contact FSDO for exceptions to the previously listed methods. ACs are advisory and not regulatory.
 

TXFlyGuy

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The bottom line? There are many (yes, many) T-51's flying with the N numbers at 2" height, and under the horizontal stabilizer. I guess the FAA inspectors / DAR's don't really care.

Or, perhaps the owners are simply complying with the letter of the law.

Same external configuration would mean...conventional gear, constant speed prop, single seat, sliding bubble canopy, biplane or monoplane, etc.
Configuration has nothing to do with scale, size, dimensions, etc.

Here are links to photos of factory aircraft:
https://www.kitplanes.com/marvelous-mustangs/
http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/30_2...d_20664-1.html

The dictionary is your friend.

DA456360-7B69-4ADB-856F-A4B859DDA7E8.jpg
 
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Tiger Tim

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I would think so long as it’s legible it probably falls under “don’t ask, don’t tell” for all practical purposes. Just don’t run into a FAA inspector with an axe to grind.
 

TXFlyGuy

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I would think so long as it’s legible it probably falls under “don’t ask, don’t tell” for all practical purposes. Just don’t run into a FAA inspector with an axe to grind.
To date, no one (FAA) has complained about this. There are enough examples flying with this "configuration" that if there was a problem, it would be well known throughout the Titan community.
 

BJC

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A stroll through the homebuilt parking / camping areas at Oshkosh will reveal many examples of N-numbers that do not comply with the FAA regulations.


BJC

PS. Tex, take a look at the Experimental-Exhibition category requirements. (Assuming that your airplane will be certified in that category.)
 
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TXFlyGuy

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A stroll through the homebuilt parking / camping areas at Oshkosh will reveal many examples of N-numbers that do not comply with the FAA regulations.
BJC
The FAA needs to define their terms.

Example...they use the term replica, plus saying it must be "30 years old". They do not state scale, size, wingspan, or anything else that would help to define their intent.

Our position is (and we are not alone here) since they do not state that a replica must be the exact scale, and size, of the 30+ year old aircraft, we are perfectly complying with both the intent and the letter of the law.

Replica = a copy of something, sometimes on a smaller scale than the original.
 

radfordc

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Example...they use the term replica, plus saying it must be "30 years old". They do not state scale, size, wingspan, or anything else that would help to define their intent.

Our position is (and we are not alone here) since they do not state that a replica must be the exact scale, and size, of the 30+ year old aircraft, we are perfectly complying with both the intent and the letter of the law.
That is also my interpretation and in discussing it with the DAR he agreed. My 75% Eindecker has 2" numbers under the horizontal tail. The FSDO inspector who was with the DAR at the inspection didn't question it, either.
 

TFF

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I I’ve never heard of someone getting in trouble with wrong N numbers, the secret is don’t be the first. If it gets past face to face with a FAA person, they will throw the whole organization at it to make you conform. Most don’t know. It’s not a life or death rule. The guy who does helicopter DPE would always give us a hard time on one of our helicopters. It was old so it could have small numbers but they were somewhere in the middle size wise; not 12” or the other end. Pretty grey on if legal. FAA never said anything when they would come by.
 

TerryM76

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During a presentation last week at the Inspection Authorization seminar, an FAA representative made the statement...."if there's a problem and there's no problem, then there's no problem, but if there's a problem and there's a problem, then there is a problem". Interesting philosophy......so, don't make it a problem.
 
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