LV3 being modded

Discussion in 'Chevy' started by pfarber, May 11, 2019.

  1. May 11, 2019 #1

    pfarber

    pfarber

    pfarber

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids/1753035-new-gen-v-project-4.html

    Lots of great photos and insight into making a stock LV3 into something new. Guy is working on standalone ECU, harness, and mods to lighten the motor and increase HP. Most for a dune buggy but he already chopped about 20lbs off stock with a few simple mods.

    I like his idea of electric remote water pumps as the stock water pump is sort of a hot mess and for cooling purpose (again, hes working an a dune buggy type install) having extended low RPM water pump operation (taxi etc) would be solved with an electric water pump. Remote mount even better.

    Thoughts???
     
  2. May 11, 2019 #2

    akwrencher

    akwrencher

    akwrencher

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,030
    Likes Received:
    338
    Location:
    Gustavus, AK
    I was engineer on a small tour boat (97') for a few years. Original 1941 engine, had a remote eater pump installed. 3phase 208v motor. I eventually found a way to put it back to engine driven the way it was supposed to be. Caused a few breakdowns at inopertune times. YMMV though. Electric pumps make sense at times.
     
  3. May 11, 2019 #3

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    5,375
    Likes Received:
    1,345
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Bad idea. You won't need extra water flow for taxiing and it's a another non-standard part to perfect. There may be a small amount of power and efficiency to gain, but your limited time is very likely better spent elsewhere.

    I see he decided to lighten his engine by removing the balance shaft. that may, or may not be a good idea. It has caused reliability problems in other engines designed with a balance shaft. Do you want to be a flying guinea pig?
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
    wsimpso1 likes this.
  4. May 12, 2019 #4

    daveklingler

    daveklingler

    daveklingler

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Albuquerque
    I guess my own preference would be to keep the engine as close to stock as possible unless there's a known problem with the water pump.

    I spent a long time reading through that entire thread the other day after you posted it. It was pretty interesting. It made me want to go out and find an LV3 and weigh it.
     
    wsimpso1 likes this.
  5. May 12, 2019 #5

    pfarber

    pfarber

    pfarber

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Car engines need to be as quiet and vibration free as possible for consumers. I'm not sure of the real worl ramifications of removing it other than freeing up about 20lbs.

    Since we don;t know what RPM range that shaft would have the most effect ( I would assume at lower RPM it would have a bigger effect due to the 90deg pistons) it could be there only for low speeds. Since in an AC its gonna see 3000-5000 RPM most of its life maybe a good dynamic balance would be enough.

    Definately will look into the balance shaft and its issued. The guy in the thread is taking it out.. he seem to know his stuff so it may not be a huge deal to remove it.

    As for the electric water pump they seem to have wide use in high end cars. I don't see an issue with them. Yes, a mechanical pump is dead simple and will last 100,000 miles easy but an AC engine is maintained at a much higher standard.. even for E-ABs. One article I read sugested using BOTH methods (belt and motor) to drive the impeller for the best of both worlds.

    Water cooling during taxi is probibly the worst phase. Very low airspeed, very low RPM and very low cooling air. Just like a fixed pitch prop is either a climber or a cruiser the cooling system must cope with low speed taxi to high speed cruise. My E-AB should cruise close to 200mph, so I need to minimize drag with a smaller radiator.. whereas I still need to taxi with that same radiator.

    I do plan on putting the radiator in the cowl and maybe try a mechanical water pump with a cooling fan on the radiator at first and see if that keeps things cool enough. A also plan on having cowl flaps.
     
  6. May 12, 2019 #6

    pfarber

    pfarber

    pfarber

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Found some balance shaft articles for the LV3

    https://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/10/03/ask-away-jeff-smith-inside-gms-new-90-degree-v6-engine/

    Most forums are in favor of balance shaft removal to increase reliability (I would say for a car with 100k+ this is an issue, in an AC that will see 5 year rebuilds the reliability issue is a weak one. BUT you gain 8-15hp be not having to spin the shaft.

    So an electric water pump and balance shaft delete is worth 16-30hp??? For $400?? Wow, that puts an LV3 at 5000rpm at about 250-265hp.
     
  7. May 12, 2019 #7

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,230
    Likes Received:
    2,961
    Location:
    Mojave, Ca
    I've heard balance shaft removal is worth power on other engines so I don't doubt that's the case here, but spinning a water pump takes power. If that shows up as additional drag on the alternator, you are not getting away from it.
     
    wsimpso1 and akwrencher like this.
  8. May 12, 2019 #8

    pfarber

    pfarber

    pfarber

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The dyno numbers tell the story:

    https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories...t-you-should-know-about-electric-water-pumps/

    Even high-efficiency, racing-designed mechanical water pumps can take anywhere from seven to 20 horsepower to drive them at high RPM, when a mechanical water pump is swapped for an electric one. Meziere says, “We can usually show gains from seven to 14 horsepower at 6,500 rpm.”

    http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-0611-reduce-parasitic-drag

    Installation of the electric water pump improved the power output by as much as 16 hp, with the gains increasing with engine speed.

    Yes, you will put slightly more load on the alternator, but adding 2hp used by the alt to remove 10-16hp used by a mechanical water pump is still good math.

    Plus you remove 5-10lbs of extra weight.
     
  9. May 12, 2019 #9

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,230
    Likes Received:
    2,961
    Location:
    Mojave, Ca
    Beware of the "evidence" presented by a manufacturer that supports his own product.

    Effective removal of heat is the only issue here. If the one device uses 16 HP to do the same thing as another at 2HP, something is wrong somewhere. Modern auto manufacturer's pay millions to eke out fractional gains in MPG... No way they are going to hang a power suck like that on an engine.

    That said, you may be underestimating your cooling requirements. The life this engine will live is like a pickup towing a loaded trailer up a steep grade with the foot to the floor.

    ...For 3 hours.
     
  10. May 12, 2019 #10

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    5,375
    Likes Received:
    1,345
    Location:
    North Carolina
    There are a lot of experts on the internet who from the comfort of their armchairs, know better than the car manufacturers that spend millions squeezing out tiny power and economy and efficiency improvements from engines. A balance shaft doesn't take a lot of power. 8-15hp is utter nonsense. It allows other parts to be lightened, that's why engines often suffer mysterious maladies when balance shafts are removed. They cannot handle the vibes without one. The LV3 was designed with a balance shaft, it's not like the older iron 4.3s where it was added later. Strangely, without a power loss...

    After market manufacturers frequently lie through their teeth make slight factual errors in their claims. Alternators are not very efficient, something around 60%. Add that to the motor efficiency of maybe 80% and you now need over double the power to pump the water as a direct mechanical drive pump. On cars with power used over a very wide range, the water pump rarely needs to pump at anything like full flow, thus an electric pump is worth using. On a plane, it will usually need to pump at a significant fraction of full flow and could very easily result in a power loss. Slightly more load? 2hp at 14V is over 100A. That's a significantly bigger alternator to eat into your weight savings, which I'm highly skeptical of. My 4.3 doesn't have a big enough alternator to run one of those pumps and nothing else...
    Before they had electric pumps to empty their wallets, racers would change pulley size to increase flow or decrease flow and absorbed power to optimise their engines. The power absorbed from a prop varies with the cube of RPM, the flow from a centrifugal water pump varies with the square of RPM. Size the pump and drive right for full power at high RPM, you have more than enough cooland flow at low RPM. A car has a more linear variation of power with RPM, thus needing a pump oversized at high RPM.

    TLDR: buy a new pulley, not an electric pump and much bigger alternator if you want to reduce water pump power.

    I realise that the OP is not going to believe a word of this, but others may want to pause and think before doing many of the 'easy' power and reliability mods suggested and sold online.
     
    akwrencher, Voidhawk9, Himat and 2 others like this.
  11. May 13, 2019 #11

    pfarber

    pfarber

    pfarber

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Well, since you DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE you don't know how WRONG you are. The dyno showed underdrive pullies still taking more HP than the electric water pump. READ THE ARTICLE.

    You do realize the many cars now use ELECTRIC power steering and not power steering pumps because the pumps waste HP.

    Again, way to many people here are STUCK IN THE PAST. Yes, IN THE PAST electric water pumps were only for drag strips or racers. But they are common aftermarket add on's and work fine. Would I try to cool a big diesel with one? No. Would I try to cool a NYC stop-n-go taxi cab? YES. Would I use it one a motor that sees very little RPM variation (aka a plane in flight?) YES.

    How about some more DYNO PROVEN REsults??

    http://www.ws6.com/mod-14.htm

    The Meziere electric water pump is a unit I picked for two reasons:

    1. The stock pump is rated to flow 25 gallons per minute at 6000rpm. This means at lower rpm's, it flows much less (especially at idle which is tough on a car in the desert). The Meziere pump flows 35 gallons per minute ALL THE TIME!

    2. Others' results have shown almost 10 rear wheel horsepower gains.

    Please tell me how an electric water pump, that flows 10GPM more than the STOCK LT1 water pump is not going to cool the engine? The main diff between LT1 and LS1 is the LS1 is aluminum.

    Show your math.

    Face it, the electric water pump beats a mechanical one in every catagory. Less power, more GPM flow, less weight. Yet people are posting JUST PLAIN WRONG information and when they run out of old wives tales they make stuff up "it won't work... becuase drag racing!'
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  12. May 13, 2019 #12

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    5,375
    Likes Received:
    1,345
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Goodbye
     
  13. May 13, 2019 #13

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Toobuilder

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,230
    Likes Received:
    2,961
    Location:
    Mojave, Ca
    Another bridge burned, and apparently plenty of matches left.
     
  14. May 13, 2019 #14

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    8,500
    Likes Received:
    5,456
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Good grief. Too much to comment on. Too little willingness to learn. Too much shouting. Too bad.


    BJC
     
  15. May 13, 2019 #15

    poormansairforce

    poormansairforce

    poormansairforce

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    Just an Ohioan
    You need to show the math on how you're going to pump 10 gpm more on less horse power. Actually, I'll do it for you!
    Here is a quote from your on precious article:

    "For our test, we simply installed the (electric)pump and eliminated the remainder of the accessories la the drag race motor"

    They were trying to get 400 hp out of a basically stock engine for all out drag racing which means they removed the alternator also so there is no drag from it powering the electric pump!!!

    In the graph you linked to you may save a couple of hp if your not running over 5000 rpm! Which you could if you experimented under drive pulleys more then what the average hot rodder does. Is it worth it? Your still going go need an idler where the water pump goes so doubtful.

    Read and understand your own info before you belittle others!
     
    wsimpso1 likes this.
  16. May 14, 2019 at 4:52 PM #16

    pfarber

    pfarber

    pfarber

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Its up to you to see the limitations of the information and make the PROPER comparisons. There simply are no LV3s running on airframes to dyno. So we have to infer from other data sets, mostly high performance race engines or street racer builds.

    The electric water pumps flow 35GPM, the stock ones do not. (well, unless you have something to post that they do???)

    Electric water pumps pump 35 GPM all the time. Stock ones will vary GREATLY with RPM.

    So whats the BETTER solution? You can't size your cooling system for taxi and expect good in flight performance, you're simply inducing to much drag. If you under size, then you overheat. Is this not common sense? After taxi, the next 'worst' phase of cooling is climb, where you have high RPM and low airflow. And even in this phase of flight the electric water pump will win because its still pumping 10GPM more through the radiator. COMMON SENSE.

    Show of hands: Who here is running an auto conversion that have an electric water pump? No one. So yeah, its a bit of an unknown. If you think its a bad idea, great, thanks for your input. I'll try it and if it sucks it takes 30 minutes to swap out from the test stand.

    This is supposed to be EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. But all I am seeing is a bunch of literal cry-babies and 'I have more flight time that you so I know more' when they have never done anything I have proposed.

    Burn my bridges??? LOL no. Dropping dead wight.

    Contribute and debate or please be quiet.
     
  17. May 14, 2019 at 5:12 PM #17

    poormansairforce

    poormansairforce

    poormansairforce

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    Just an Ohioan
    Nope, because we all have calculators and know how to use them. Good luck.
     
  18. May 14, 2019 at 7:51 PM #18

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    mcrae0104

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,738
    Likes Received:
    1,781
    Location:
    BDU, BJC
    It turns out that someone in aviation history has encountered this dilemma before.

    https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/8c/65/2f/8e494b62b52ba6/US2509804.pdf
     
    wsimpso1 likes this.
  19. May 17, 2019 at 3:13 PM #19

    pfarber

    pfarber

    pfarber

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I stated in this or the other thread that cowl flaps would be utilized, but cowl flaps don't solve the main issue of water circulation to remove heat. At idle, your cooling system still has to obey the laws of thermodynamics.

    Have you read any of the water cooled conversion articles where cooling isn't the most significant issue during development? Some never get past it and state that if it gets to hot while taxing they have to turn the motor off. Yeah, that's a plan. Or how about, you know, we add cowl flaps, an electric radiator fan and a water pump that can ALWAYS circulate water faster than the stock mechanical pump at operating/idle speed... If the system overcools, then removing two items are as simple as unbolting them. Cowl flaps would be the most difficult to redesign as it would require modification of the cowl and/or airframe.

    I'm starting to seriously question the ability of many people to problem solve. So far there have been no serious reasons to reject the idea of an electric water pump.

    Come on guys.. keep tossing your 'ideas' (lol sure, that's what they are) and lets see what sticks.
     
  20. May 17, 2019 at 3:42 PM #20

    pfarber

    pfarber

    pfarber

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Someone on the internet said:

    "It must be said that many experimental aircraft have had relatively inefficient radiator setups and consequent cooling problems"

    "Most power losses are attributed to problems with the supporting systems, not the core engine. This is where careful design decisions pay benefits and poor practices often cause engine shutdowns."

    "Shared information on various forums and learning from both good and bad experiences will result in better designs which should improve overall reliability."

    http://www.sdsefi.com/air51.htm
     

Share This Page

arrow_white