A 2L"medium" for front seat solo?

[CdnMedic]

So, the biggest thing that kept me from building a Sonerai is flying it from the rear seat. However, there are always compromises in any airplane so I decided to go with a 2L and just deal with the fact of flying from the rear.

But, people have figured out configurations to solo from the front, so I've been working it out in my brain how to make it work.

I took Scott's weight and balance spreadsheet, moved some things around, and with moving the fuel tank behind the seat, mounting 2 batteries at the tail post, and having the pilot in the front seat with the seat "moved back" a few inches as shown as a mod in one of the news letters, I can get the cofg with the pilot in the front and an empty tank to being at 7.95" (pilot weight is max 180lb). So barely out of limits.
I'd be well within the aft limits with a full 15 gallons in the tank and a passenger.
I didn't include the weight of things like dual fuel pumps (my engine is fuel injected) and since I'm going glass cockpit I can move a few things to the tail like radios and whatever else... I'm not a huge fan of loading the tail with weight in the event of a flat spin (extra momentum).

So, the idea popped in to my head to keep the firewall back to the station at the rear spar stock as a normal 2 and then build the back half as a stretch. The extra moment of the longer tail gets the cofg behind the 8" and the length helps stability. The tank (15 gallons) would still be behind the rear seat.
I'm not a tall fella so the "cramped" front cockpit doesn't bother me.

I realize this is departing from what a Sonerai truly is, but it is experimental aviation. It isn't super far off from a few things others have done, and this isn't a very drastic change.

I'll never have this plane flying below aerobatic category weight with me as a pilot, so I don't intend to have it weigh 550lb empty, but I don't want to add extra ballast or weight by doing things like covering the bird in aluminum just to bring the weight rearward.
Engine weight will be 180-190lbs, so it's close to the heavier VW options.

Thoughts?

 

[Elviar]

You may be able to make all this work, but I think I'd start from scratch, or with a different design that more closely fits with your end goal. Be sure to share your progress so others can learn from it.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

 

[CdnMedic]

You may be able to make all this work, but I think I'd start from scratch, or with a different design that more closely fits with your end goal. Be sure to share your progress so others can learn from it.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

I did a bunch of calculations with that spreadsheet, and it would actually have me within limits in all foreseeable flight configurations. However, it's going to send me down that rabbit hole of changes. I'm just going to build the original S2L and fly from the rear. If I keep on "improving" I'll never get to the building.

 

[Elviar]

You are wise...... I'm eight years into my project and still a year away from flying. I've learned that any change takes time and slows progress. Still, you want to be satisfied with the end product!

 

[phzabriskie]

Hi WTR388. My Sonerai IIL was a single-seat. The only modification was there was no cross bar at the front seat position. The front of the cockpit had cross pieces welded to reinforce the now larger open cockpit opening. My seat was the rear seat moved.. 3"(?) Forward. My many photos should still be on the website.

Drawings for the added welding is there.

 

[vhbill]

It will take about 2,500 hours to build the average Sonerai. Mine took more like 3,000 + hours with the modifications I did. It also took about 10 years to build. In other words, you have to enjoy making things. You have to have that dream in the back of your mind about how it will feel to sit in this clever machine that you have built and watch the world from the sky.

Most projects change hands before the aircraft flys so consider what you will be passing on to the next bloke or gal.

You will be lucky to fly the Sonerai more than about 500 hours before passing it on to its next owner. Most people fly a maximum of 50 hours a year, so 500 hours is 10 years flying. The VW engine will last about 300 hours between overhauls, so call it two overhauls and a total of 600 hours /12 years that you will fly it.

So in very simple terms, you need to get 4 to 5 times as much enjoyment out of the challenge of building a Sonerai (or any other complex aircraft) than out of actually flying.

Part of that building enjoyment is doing the research and designing useful modifications that will improve the outcome and make it truely yours. The kit aircraft are really good, but expensive. Most are easy to build and the end result is a known quantity. Most of the design bugs have been removed and there is an ongoing monitoring of any faults to help keep it safe when it's flying.

Building an experimental aircraft is a learning exercise. Some aircraft like the Sonerai require a lot of learning to get it right. You need to enjoy the learning part as well the flying. If you are not enjoying the build part you are unlikely to do a good job as your heart won't be in it. You need to do the best possible job you can to make it a safe aircraft. At the end of the day, safety is your prime requirement.

Building an aircraft is not a cheap option. The cheapest and obviously the quickest option is probably a share in a factory made aircraft. You know what you get with a factory built aircraft. It can also be big enough to take friends and family with you.

With insurance and hangarage, my Sonerai costs about $150 per hour ($7,500 after tax per year) to fly based on flying 50 hours per year.

A home built aircraft may be better built than the factory built aircraft, but are you sure that you can do a better job than the factory? There is no guarantee that the home built design is as good as a factory built aircraft no matter how hard we try to do a good build job. That's why we have to put a warning sign in the aircraft warning people about the airworthiness of the aircraft and why we need to do some serious research before we commit to the project.

I enjoyed every bit of the 10 years building my aircraft. It was super frustrating, but fun. I'm flying it now and still making small changes. It's a pleasure to fly it, but the reality is that no matter how keen I am to fly it, I can't seem do more than about 50 hours a year.

So if you are in a rush to get into the air, consider buying a share in a factory built aircraft. If you are going to enjoy the build process (creating your dream machine) four times as mucn or more than flying it, take the time to do the research and make it a better and safer aircraft.
The Sonerai is a design that can be modified to make it better. Some areas worth considering are:

1. Use a lighter and more powerful engine such as a Rotax 912ULS
2. Use a variable pitch propeller for hot and high conditions
3. Design it around the front seat solo, definitely more fun
4. Add more legroom for both seats if you are in the tall category
5. Put the fuel in the wings and maybe a smaller tank in the rear for weight and balance. Fuel in the wing reduces the bending moment on the wing spar box
6. Do the wing spar mods (later plans have the details)
7. Review the structure to find out its weaknesses - there are a few key areas that appear marginal
8. Install rollover protection - hopefully you never need it, but it is a tail dragger!
9. Increase the vertical stabilizer area/size and rudder, that will add stability about the normal axis
10. Install flaperons to increase the glide angle and slow flight capability
11. Install horizontal stabilizer trim - it is the most efficient trim system
12. Mass balance all control surfaces - if you want to go much over 120kt and reduce the chance of flutter

If you decide to make these changes, do about a year's research. It is a major project that needs to be well thought out before you start. Once you start construction it is hard to make the changes.

Consider the share of a factory built aircraft or just buld from tje plans if you are not interested in putting in the time to do the research.

Remember the 2-3,000 hour /10 year build time compared with the 600 hours /12 year flying time before commiting to a project like this. You need to enjoy building things. The harder it is to build, the more satisfaction you will get out of the result.

Good luck!

 

[Aviacs]

3 years ago i bought a flying S2 in Canada so that i could get in the air quickly. It has fuel in the wings, a transponder for quick conversion to ADS/B; & some other niceties.
Hmmmm.....
Back in the states, the hangar slot that had been promised suddenly was not available.
No problem. FAA did not want to sign it off as Amateur built anyway since it was built out of the country. So there were both paperwork and structural work to be done.
I put it in the neighbor's barn on concrete. Since i knew the lid did not close on my height, i needed to make a taller canopy & rollbar anyway.
While in the barn, the town did some road work such that when the next major storm hit before the roadwork was completed, the barn flooded....
After a couple years in the barn i got my hangar slot and moved.
In the meantime i had been building an oven to cook a new canopy.
At the hangar, i borescoped the engine due to it's storage in the barn and found it prudent to pull the heads.
The story would not make sense to relate in full here, but 6 months later my heads are mostly done. (Machine work is complete - still need correct springs).
I *think* i finished the oven last week, but have not programmed or test fired it.
With a taller canopy, i will also need to complete #'s 7, 8, & 9 in Vhbill's list.
There's also a set of RV3 B wings with flaps here, if between the FAA negotiation & other considerations an even bigger project is warranted to attain E/AB AW.......

Fortunately, "many" years ago, a few of us incorporated a flying club that operates a C140 & prewar J3, so when time/money permits, there are things to fly.
Right now i'm reveling in the snow and hope it is a long, cold winter for skiing.

Sure hope that however your project evolves, it is faster to completion than mine has been!

smt

 

[czr7s1]

It will take about 2,500 hours to build the average Sonerai. Mine took more like 3,000 + hours with the modifications I did. It also took about 10 years to build. In other words, you have to enjoy making things. You have to have that dream in the back of your mind about how it will feel to sit in this clever machine that you have built and watch the world from the sky.

Most projects change hands before the aircraft flys so consider what you will be passing on to the next bloke or gal.

You will be lucky to fly the Sonerai more than about 500 hours before passing it on to its next owner. Most people fly a maximum of 50 hours a year, so 500 hours is 10 years flying. The VW engine will last about 300 hours between overhauls, so call it two overhauls and a total of 600 hours /12 years that you will fly it.

So in very simple terms, you need to get 4 to 5 times as much enjoyment out of the challenge of building a Sonerai (or any other complex aircraft) than out of actually flying.

Part of that building enjoyment is doing the research and designing useful modifications that will improve the outcome and make it truely yours. The kit aircraft are really good, but expensive. Most are easy to build and the end result is a known quantity. Most of the design bugs have been removed and there is an ongoing monitoring of any faults to help keep it safe when it's flying.

Building an experimental aircraft is a learning exercise. Some aircraft like the Sonerai require a lot of learning to get it right. You need to enjoy the learning part as well the flying. If you are not enjoying the build part you are unlikely to do a good job as your heart won't be in it. You need to do the best possible job you can to make it a safe aircraft. At the end of the day, safety is your prime requirement.

Building an aircraft is not a cheap option. The cheapest and obviously the quickest option is probably a share in a factory made aircraft. You know what you get with a factory built aircraft. It can also be big enough to take friends and family with you.

With insurance and hangarage, my Sonerai costs about $150 per hour ($7,500 after tax per year) to fly based on flying 50 hours per year.

A home built aircraft may be better built than the factory built aircraft, but are you sure that you can do a better job than the factory? There is no guarantee that the home built design is as good as a factory built aircraft no matter how hard we try to do a good build job. That's why we have to put a warning sign in the aircraft warning people about the airworthiness of the aircraft and why we need to do some serious research before we commit to the project.

I enjoyed every bit of the 10 years building my aircraft. It was super frustrating, but fun. I'm flying it now and still making small changes. It's a pleasure to fly it, but the reality is that no matter how keen I am to fly it, I can't seem do more than about 50 hours a year.

So if you are in a rush to get into the air, consider buying a share in a factory built aircraft. If you are going to enjoy the build process (creating your dream machine) four times as mucn or more than flying it, take the time to do the research and make it a better and safer aircraft.
The Sonerai is a design that can be modified to make it better. Some areas worth considering are:

1. Use a lighter and more powerful engine such as a Rotax 912ULS
2. Use a variable pitch propeller for hot and high conditions
3. Design it around the front seat solo, definitely more fun
4. Add more legroom for both seats if you are in the tall category
5. Put the fuel in the wings and maybe a smaller tank in the rear for weight and balance. Fuel in the wing reduces the bending moment on the wing spar box
6. Do the wing spar mods (later plans have the details)
7. Review the structure to find out its weaknesses - there are a few key areas that appear marginal
8. Install rollover protection - hopefully you never need it, but it is a tail dragger!
9. Increase the vertical stabilizer area/size and rudder, that will add stability about the normal axis
10. Install flaperons to increase the glide angle and slow flight capability
11. Install horizontal stabilizer trim - it is the most efficient trim system
12. Mass balance all control surfaces - if you want to go much over 120kt and reduce the chance of flutter

If you decide to make these changes, do about a year's research. It is a major project that needs to be well thought out before you start. Once you start construction it is hard to make the changes.

Consider the share of a factory built aircraft or just buld from tje plans if you are not interested in putting in the time to do the research.

Remember the 2-3,000 hour /10 year build time compared with the 600 hours /12 year flying time before commiting to a project like this. You need to enjoy building things. The harder it is to build, the more satisfaction you will get out of the result.

Good luck!

Vhbill - this is the most real, honest, and true explanation I’ve ever read about what all builders go through during the process. Appreciate the time it took to type this up and share with the group. Like you said, at the end of the day, the joy of making things and vision you have will hopefully keep the motivation going until your project is flying. If either suffers, that’s where groups like these come in to see others across the world making progress which inspires us to keep going!

 

[CdnMedic]

It will take about 2,500 hours to build the average Sonerai. Mine took more like 3,000 + hours with the modifications I did. It also took about 10 years to build. In other words, you have to enjoy making things. You have to have that dream in the back of your mind about how it will feel to sit in this clever machine that you have built and watch the world from the sky.

Most projects change hands before the aircraft flys so consider what you will be passing on to the next bloke or gal.

You will be lucky to fly the Sonerai more than about 500 hours before passing it on to its next owner. Most people fly a maximum of 50 hours a year, so 500 hours is 10 years flying. The VW engine will last about 300 hours between overhauls, so call it two overhauls and a total of 600 hours /12 years that you will fly it.

So in very simple terms, you need to get 4 to 5 times as much enjoyment out of the challenge of building a Sonerai (or any other complex aircraft) than out of actually flying.

Part of that building enjoyment is doing the research and designing useful modifications that will improve the outcome and make it truely yours. The kit aircraft are really good, but expensive. Most are easy to build and the end result is a known quantity. Most of the design bugs have been removed and there is an ongoing monitoring of any faults to help keep it safe when it's flying.

Building an experimental aircraft is a learning exercise. Some aircraft like the Sonerai require a lot of learning to get it right. You need to enjoy the learning part as well the flying. If you are not enjoying the build part you are unlikely to do a good job as your heart won't be in it. You need to do the best possible job you can to make it a safe aircraft. At the end of the day, safety is your prime requirement.

Building an aircraft is not a cheap option. The cheapest and obviously the quickest option is probably a share in a factory made aircraft. You know what you get with a factory built aircraft. It can also be big enough to take friends and family with you.

With insurance and hangarage, my Sonerai costs about $150 per hour ($7,500 after tax per year) to fly based on flying 50 hours per year.

A home built aircraft may be better built than the factory built aircraft, but are you sure that you can do a better job than the factory? There is no guarantee that the home built design is as good as a factory built aircraft no matter how hard we try to do a good build job. That's why we have to put a warning sign in the aircraft warning people about the airworthiness of the aircraft and why we need to do some serious research before we commit to the project.

I enjoyed every bit of the 10 years building my aircraft. It was super frustrating, but fun. I'm flying it now and still making small changes. It's a pleasure to fly it, but the reality is that no matter how keen I am to fly it, I can't seem do more than about 50 hours a year.

So if you are in a rush to get into the air, consider buying a share in a factory built aircraft. If you are going to enjoy the build process (creating your dream machine) four times as mucn or more than flying it, take the time to do the research and make it a better and safer aircraft.
The Sonerai is a design that can be modified to make it better. Some areas worth considering are:

1. Use a lighter and more powerful engine such as a Rotax 912ULS
2. Use a variable pitch propeller for hot and high conditions
3. Design it around the front seat solo, definitely more fun
4. Add more legroom for both seats if you are in the tall category
5. Put the fuel in the wings and maybe a smaller tank in the rear for weight and balance. Fuel in the wing reduces the bending moment on the wing spar box
6. Do the wing spar mods (later plans have the details)
7. Review the structure to find out its weaknesses - there are a few key areas that appear marginal
8. Install rollover protection - hopefully you never need it, but it is a tail dragger!
9. Increase the vertical stabilizer area/size and rudder, that will add stability about the normal axis
10. Install flaperons to increase the glide angle and slow flight capability
11. Install horizontal stabilizer trim - it is the most efficient trim system
12. Mass balance all control surfaces - if you want to go much over 120kt and reduce the chance of flutter

If you decide to make these changes, do about a year's research. It is a major project that needs to be well thought out before you start. Once you start construction it is hard to make the changes.

Consider the share of a factory built aircraft or just buld from tje plans if you are not interested in putting in the time to do the research.

Remember the 2-3,000 hour /10 year build time compared with the 600 hours /12 year flying time before commiting to a project like this. You need to enjoy building things. The harder it is to build, the more satisfaction you will get out of the result.

Good luck!

Thanks for the reply.
Luckily, I am one of those dreamers that wants to take to the sky in something I built. I've had a few opportunities now to buy a couple other home builts. I've passed on a Waiex and on the "other" Bill's Sonerai that is for sale here in Canada. Reason being is that I want to build it myself, and to make it the way I want it to be.
I'm a tinkerer, everything I own seems to end up modified in some manner or another. Luckily for me, I'm an aircraft structures tech in the RCAF, I have some specific extra qualifications in things like composites, I'm no stranger to welding, and I've bucked many thousands of rivets at this point. I have access to some fancy equipment if I don't already have it at home. I'm a single fella, so I don't have the same family "distractions", however I do travel a lot with work as I'll be flying with the Snowbirds for the 2023 season. I'm in no rush to complete this thing as safety, quality and making it "mine" are the goals. I love learning new things, particularly engineering. Anything about aerodynamics draws me in. I'm challenging myself to make this as smooth and efficient as possible, especially packing a water cooled engine in the cowling.

One purpose for it is to fly home to see family once or twice a year, which will be about a 25 hour round trip, so hopefully I'll bring the hours up to bring the cost per hour down.

And to answer some of your list: I'm using a Yamaha Apex. 140hp, 180-190 lbs. I'll be using a ground adjustable 3 blade prop. I'm a short fella, so leg room isn't an issue. I did sit in one to make sure I fit. I believe I have it worked out how to solo from the front, but I'm just going to keep it closer to plans this time. If I want to build again, I'll build a second with intent to fly from the front. I'm considering wing tanks for the extra range. I'll be raising the stabilizer about 6" and adding some volume to it and the rudder. And of course I'll be doing horizontal stabilizer trim.

 

[CdnMedic]

3 years ago i bought a flying S2 in Canada so that i could get in the air quickly. It has fuel in the wings, a transponder for quick conversion to ADS/B; & some other niceties.
Hmmmm.....
Back in the states, the hangar slot that had been promised suddenly was not available.
No problem. FAA did not want to sign it off as Amateur built anyway since it was built out of the country. So there were both paperwork and structural work to be done.
I put it in the neighbor's barn on concrete. Since i knew the lid did not close on my height, i needed to make a taller canopy & rollbar anyway.
While in the barn, the town did some road work such that when the next major storm hit before the roadwork was completed, the barn flooded....
After a couple years in the barn i got my hangar slot and moved.
In the meantime i had been building an oven to cook a new canopy.
At the hangar, i borescoped the engine due to it's storage in the barn and found it prudent to pull the heads.
The story would not make sense to relate in full here, but 6 months later my heads are mostly done. (Machine work is complete - still need correct springs).
I *think* i finished the oven last week, but have not programmed or test fired it.
With a taller canopy, i will also need to complete #'s 7, 8, & 9 in Vhbill's list.
There's also a set of RV3 B wings with flaps here, if between the FAA negotiation & other considerations an even bigger project is warranted to attain E/AB AW.......

Fortunately, "many" years ago, a few of us incorporated a flying club that operates a C140 & prewar J3, so when time/money permits, there are things to fly.
Right now i'm reveling in the snow and hope it is a long, cold winter for skiing.

Sure hope that however your project evolves, it is faster to completion than mine has been!

smt

I've been caught up in a few life events since I've started. Summer of 21 was spent building a new shop after the township condemned my previous one (which honestly I was happy about as insurance paid me almost enough to build a great shop provided I did all the labour which wasn't bad considering I was a framer at one point). And then just as I finished it I was posted this past spring to my dream job, but it has taken another 8 months away from the project getting the house set up and the garage ready to build in... Unfortunately it isn't as nice as what I had built. I hope to have the fuselage on gear by April because I'll be gone for a few months with work after that... But, I'm not going to complain about it too much considering what I'll be doing.

 

[patmc]

You would be better off getting an instructor and learning to fly from the rear cockpit of most tandem planes. It would be cheaper and entail much less re-design on your part. It would also open up the opportunity of buying a flying plane. You would be surprised; its not that difficult. You would even be a more experienced pilot. The biggest challenge would be finding a qualified CFI and airplane.

 

[John B]

There really is no reason to do solo from the front seat of a 2L and I can actually think of a few reasons not to.

1. In my opinion it is much easier to get into the rear seat of a 2L compared to the front. at least it was on mine when it did have a front seat. The front seat on a non-stretched 2L is tight.
2. Visibility from the rear seat position is fine. On my airplane which doesn't have a raised canopy, it only takes very slight s-turning to see straight ahead. The narrow cowl and low attitude on the ground means you can pretty much see everything without even s-turning. I wouldn't even call it s-turn, more like just a tail wiggle to see.
3. The rear seat is in my opinion the safer bet if something were to happen. You have a lot of structure ahead of you to crush and absorb energy in the event of an accident. In the front seat, your feet are just behind the firewall.
4. Same for the instrument panel. It is close to you in the front and you are very likely to hit it if something bad were to happen. Since eliminating the front seat in my 2L I did add a panel further back, but it is still nowhere as close as the front seat to stock panel.

 

[patmc]

You would be better off getting an instructor and learning to fly from the rear cockpit of most tandem planes. It would be cheaper and entail much less re-design on your part. It would also open up the opportunity of buying a flying plane. You would be surprised; its not that difficult. You would even be a more experienced pilot. The biggest challenge would be finding a qualified CFI and airplane.

I agree with everything n109jb said.

 

[Robin Austin]

Hi WTR388.
I rarely chime in to web blogs but your's caught my eye.
Although you may be too advanced with your project now to change course, I thought you may still be interested in a few pics of a (my) Sonerai variant that is re-engineered to pilot from the front seat.
You can see the pics here ...
http://worldrecordplane.com/new-project---srsRegards
Robin

 

[Robin Austin]

I just simply posted the link to my new project web page but it appears the "internet smarts" somehow inadvertently provided a description of my old aircraft.
That was unintended.
Haha! That's why I don't post...... all too clever for this old brain!

 

[vhbill]

Gents and Gals,

Build your Sonerai how you want it, but do it safely and within your capabilities. If you modify the design it is no longer a Sonerai and you will be the first person to have ever flown this new type of aircraft.

However I can tell you this about the front seat pilot version

• the pilot's view is much better from the front seat than the back seat
• there is plenty of room for instruments and radios on the front instrument panel, not that you need more than the basic VFR instruments for a small aircraft like the Sonerai
• It is a lot easier to get in and out of the front seat than the back seat
• I made the cockpit space longer than the plans so have plenty of legroom in the front and back seats
• I can stretch my legs in the front seat
• A rollover bar can be installed at the back of the front seat without blocking the view of the pilot.

I considered buying a built Sonerai IIL, but I'm about 6' and couldn't get into a standard Sonerai back or front seat.

My seat space is about 5" longer in the front and rear seats and it feels spacious when I get in. It is much less clostrophobic than my previous RV-6.

I'm not trying to sell you the front seat concept or suggest that a Sonerai that is designed to be flown from the rear seat is not as good. It is just different.

Mine took about twice as long to build than a standard version and cost a lot more, but it exceeds my expectations.

It is kept in a trailer that I also built. I'm not sure what is more satisfying, the trailer or the aeroplane. The package is certainly a cost effecitive way to go flying and I can step outside my house and tinker with it or do maintenance any time without having to drive to a hangar.

Best wishes whichever way you go.

 

[DonMan]

I really like the idea of single front seat also. I have an SII mid wing that I am converting to low wing because I am not comfortable putting my legs under the spar box, it’s just a personal issue with me. Removing the front seat and controls and moving the rear seat forward sounds great to me. I am a fairly big guy so W&B won’t be as big a change as a little fellow. Lol

 

[Speed20]

I really like the idea of single front seat also. I have an SII mid wing that I am converting to low wing because I am not comfortable putting my legs under the spar box, it’s just a personal issue with me. Removing the front seat and controls and moving the rear seat forward sounds great to me. I am a fairly big guy so W&B won’t be as big a change as a little fellow. Lol

I’ll tell you what, personally, If I would have known while building my 2L, I’d kill for 2-3” more width in the cockpit!

 

[out grown]

After the first 10 hours flying my sonerai 2 from the back it was time to try the front as I was flying with a instructor a few times .
The yaw was harder to control as i was in front of the main spare. With the instructor in back he pointer out that I was all
over the sky ,still landed it . landing from rear is easier . Now have over 300 hrs rear seat I'm Good with it
C-GKWB Ontario Canada

 

[tls258]

Hopefully the time gods will smile this year. I’m thinking UL power, rear seat. BRS in the front seat. Chop canopy for rear seat. P-40 style.