2180 or 2276?

[DBCRN]

If I remember correctly Gaston said he threw his Nickies in the trash.

Were they really Nickies (TM), or just cast aluminum with nikasil?

 

[DBCRN]

I understand that the original designer highly recommends the AeroVee 2180 as a lightweight full featured engine for Sonerai 1 and 2! But, then again what would he know...

Yeah really... ;D

 

[n3480h1]

Welcome Mr. Monnette. I wonder if the designer might offer an opinion as to whether the the 2180 is sufficient for the Sonerai II low wing stretch version at gross weight.

Tom

 

[JoeB]

I understand that the original designer highly recommends the AeroVee 2180 as a lightweight full featured engine for Sonerai 1 and 2! But, then again what would he know...

I read a story about this John Monnett guy almost not having the Sonerai ready for Oshkosh 'cause the engine wouldn't start, we can't take an engine suggestion from him...

oh wait a minute, is this THE 'John Monnett'???

 

[Sonerai 1]

The Prototype Sonerai 2LS had a 2180... need I say more!

 

[Gaston]

Hi Guys
Can't tell what type of nikasil it was ... they were from Great Plains
I believe my problem was more related with the narrow (stock) barrel shims that made their way into the case more than with the nikasil properly said...
when the shims made their way into the case ,it produced a condition where squareness of the assembly wasn't maintained anymore ,and this may very well have caused the barrels to warp...
I couldn't afford another set of these ,so I chose to come back to steel barrels.
but what a difference in weight 10 # a lot of weight for such a little bird...
but the 2276 will easily live with this added weight ...don't worry for that!!
the best would be that I cut that 10# from my own belly....
easily said ,but hard to reach...

Gaston

 

[JuergenA]

Hi friends,
Gastons problem with the NiKis is known, but not in this version of engine and this kind of NiKis. The Limbach and Sauer factory in Germany had solved the problem with special cylinder head Studs. The Limbach system is, the studs have 8 mm diameter and the thread of the studs is M10 (10mm dia). The material is also a special one, but I don't know the specification for this material. The function is the following: when the barrels are hot, they become more length(Aluminium!) as the length of the studs(Iron) and this special studs are more elastic and so, the pressing power on the case and the heads are not so much as with the standard studs.
I have on my studs about 20% less torque to compensate this, but I do not know, if this will help over the years!!!! It's experimental
My reason for the NiKis is, NiKis make the engine(heads) cooler and I want to make the highest power on this engine, with this little cooling inside the Sonerai. I think, I am on the right way... ;D
with best regards
Juergen

 

[Raceair]

Welcome, John.....Glad you're on board here........Ed Fisher

 

[n3480h1]

Once I make a decision about something like an engine, its very hard for anyone to change my mind. However, when the designer of my aircraft tells me the prototype 2LS produced good performance numbers and he recommends the 2180, well . . . its pretty hard to refute that kind of expertise. So, I'll "Dance with the gal what brung me". Now its on me to keep it light - which is as it should be. I guess the extra 10 pounds (more or less) I'm carrying around should be the first to go, lol.

Thank you John. Your help is appreciated.

Tom

 

[Hans]

... Its too early to tell, but the 2276 that uses 94mm jugs cut at the base to fit the 90.5/92mm hole might be the way to go (in that displacement). It leaves the most meat in the case and give you the cylinder wall thickness where needed (at the top).

You are referring to the slip-in 94mm jugs we talked about last year? See http://www.sonerai.net/CMS/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=160&jfile=index.php&topic=1113.0. I'm tempted.

Hi Group,

my first post here. After reading this discussion there is something that I want to add:

Tom Wilson, in his well known reference "How to rebuild your Volkswagen", (on page 46) has this to say about slip-in cylinders:

"The bottom line is such that slip-in cylinders are too thin for good longevity if larger than 87mm. At first sign of high heat or high mileage, these cylinders warp."

cheers
Hans

 

[privatepilot03]

Hans,

He was referencing true slip in cylinders. The 88mm "slip fit" cylinders had thinner cylinder walls throughout the length of the cylinder. These had the same dimensions as the stock 85.5mm cylinders so they required no machining of the case or heads. Essentially, they took the 85.5mm cylinders and bored them out to fit the larger 87 or 88mm pistons. The only way to do this was to remove a fair amount of material from the cylinders. This "thinning" of the cylinder wall is what led to warping.

What is being discussed above is taking a 94mm cylinder and machining down the spigot OD so that it fits in the case where a 90.5/92mm cylinder would fit. The cylinder wall where the piston rides is untouched so you still have full thickness of the cylinder around the cooling fins etc. You'd still have to have heads cut for 94mm cylinders.

Hope this helps.

Chad

 

[Hans]

Chad,

thank you for clearing that up. So you think that slip-in 94mm's would be ok if one - like me - is not going for all out power but for maximum durability?

cheers
Hans

 

[privatepilot03]

Chad,

thank you for clearing that up. So you think that slip-in 94mm's would be ok if one - like me - is not going for all out power but for maximum durability?

cheers
Hans

I think they'd work fine. I don't see any durability issues with opening the case up to accept 94mm pistons that aren't machined down either though.

I'd run 94mm pistons over 92mm from a durability standpoint. 92mm pistons have the thinnest cylinder walls out of any of the common piston sizes.

Chad

 

[tonykasabasich]

I really need some advise here.


I'm ready to build the motor. I'm set on doing 94mm pistons with an 84mm crank. I've got an Empi Alum case and a few sets of dual port heads. That's about it so far.

So the crank has me scared to death. My choices range from a billet Scat at 1200 bucks all the way down to junko Chinese at 189 bucks.

scat billet 4340 1200.00
scat forged 4340 475.00
cb perf forged 4340 275.00
empi forged 4340 250.00
chinese who knows 189.00

I've got an empi crank 4340 new sitting here. Do I run it or go buy a Scat? Forged or do I have to go billet? I'm way way out of money here so budget is a concern. I was gonna use the F1 hub. Does that protect me if I'm using a forged crank? Do I even need to run the F1 hub?

I've got a few mills here. I wanna drill my own heads for dual plug. Anyone got an instruction sheet on angle and location or a spare head they wanna loan me for a day? What plug size should I be running?

I can buy all the Empi parts I need at Wholesale prices. I did a buy in with a friend's VW shop. So I 'd like to use that big discount whenever I can.


Any advise is welcomed

Tony

 

[o2koold]

Tony,
I went with the CB Perf. forged and the F1 hub. I had a semi-local VW machine shop- local by WY. standards- tapper and tap the nose. IMO I feel that you need to beef up that #4 bearing. I would not build that big of an engine and fly it with out the bigger bearing. As far as the dual plug angles, I have what you need in a hard copy at home, but I can't bring it up online today. I will try again tonight and if that does not work maybe I can mail it to you.
Scott R

 

[privatepilot03]

I really need some advise here.


I'm ready to build the motor. I'm set on doing 94mm pistons with an 84mm crank. I've got an Empi Alum case and a few sets of dual port heads. That's about it so far.

So the crank has me scared to death. My choices range from a billet Scat at 1200 bucks all the way down to junko Chinese at 189 bucks.

scat billet 4340 1200.00
scat forged 4340 475.00
cb perf forged 4340 275.00
empi forged 4340 250.00
chinese who knows 189.00

I've got an empi crank 4340 new sitting here. Do I run it or go buy a Scat? Forged or do I have to go billet? I'm way way out of money here so budget is a concern. I was gonna use the F1 hub. Does that protect me if I'm using a forged crank? Do I even need to run the F1 hub?

I've got a few mills here. I wanna drill my own heads for dual plug. Anyone got an instruction sheet on angle and location or a spare head they wanna loan me for a day? What plug size should I be running?

I can buy all the Empi parts I need at Wholesale prices. I did a buy in with a friend's VW shop. So I 'd like to use that big discount whenever I can.


Any advise is welcomed

Tony

The chinese cranks are not a Scat crank, but they are quite serviceable and almost all of them are forged. The Empi crank will be the same chinese crank as the CB Performance crank as they are likely both buying from the exact same overseas vendor and putting their own sticker on the box. Have the F1 machine work done and go fly your plane. Good luck with the aluminum case.

Chad

 

[tonykasabasich]

Hey Chad

I kinda took the "good luck with the aluminum case" as though you have concerns about it. Should I be thinking about something? What do you know that I might wanna know? Is there a better way to get 94 x 84?


Scott, I'd love to get a copy of whatever you've got !


thanks

Tony

 

[o2koold]

Tony,
I sent you a pm.
Scott R

 

[Gaston]

Tony
are you aware of the additional 14 Lbs or so, of the aluminium case ??

Gaston

 

[Schmleff]

Lets just say that it took a while to get one that was usable.

The one I have now measures out just fine, but it took about 8 months to get it. There is a pict in my gallery.