Wittman Tailwind modified to meet E-LSA?

[stanislavz]

And one graph (do not know its source anymore) On magic carpet lift from fuselage :

 

[simflyer]

I must have missed it. Why is the Buttercup a no-go?
View attachment 101719

After ButterBurger was built TailWind with longer wing (also longer chord) and slightly thicker airfoil, which looks very nice and also flies fast with some slower stall. I will look for info. ButterBurger looks very nice and isn't "no go", but if have to meet LSA regs, then needs wing change.

 

[simflyer]

Jim Clement about N 167WH - BigWind:
Wing rib profile is the same as the Buttercup (NACA 2412), including 8” chord flaps, no moving leading edge.
Wingspan 27', cord is 55” compared to the TW 48”, wing area cca 132 sq feet compared to about 88 of the TW
Wing is plywood covered the same as the W10.
Fuselage about 12” longer, engine moved forward some, cockpit a bit larger and tail group moved back some.
CG came out very good. Also has RV6 landing gear for more prop clearance.

Engine Lyc O-290G converted. Performance is, stall with flaps about 58mph, clean 62mph. Tops at 182-184 mph.
Landings are like a Lyc powered W10, only in slow motion, The large flaps are very effective.

Empty weight is 900 #. Gross is the same as TW.
Partial flaps max speed 100 mph. Full 80 mph.
32 gallon fuel tank

 

[120mm]

Not to throw a wrench in your dreams but how about a scratch built Mystery Pacer using Wag Aero plans? https://www.shortwingpipers.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5805&d=1388016932


View attachment 101824View attachment 101825

I'm considering a Wagabond stretched to Clipper length with near Cub length wings, with 100 hp to get something similar

 

[Turd Ferguson]

There is a gent in N MI or MN, one o them COLD places building in his words a Buttwind. Doing beautiful work. Looks like the TW but is built as a BC. Covering and paint so he’s almost there.

Ya, you are referring to Mike and Jazz (the flying dog). Has a great looking plane.

 

[Tailwind_Fan]

I was considering going down this path because I’m having issues with my medical... but decided not to because I can’t fly sport pilot on a driver’s license after being denied a medical, plus the difficulty in even finding a sport pilot instructor. When it became clear my only option was to fight for a 3rd class medical I decided that I might as well get the full PPL.
I was offered an extremely light version of the Tailwind, that had flown with a c-65. However, the landing gear was a little too light and folded up, which lead to revealing the sub-par weld joints under the fabric. I believe this version was not much over 600 lbs?

-Alana

 

[mk3041]

OK I may regret this. I have W-10 that will meet LSA.
Empty weight 593# wing span 27.5 ft. wittman tips.
A75 motor
Calbie Woods Al. wings, And much correspondence between Steve W. and the builder.
.250th cuff under leading edge. Guy built 3 sets of wings to get it right.
Stall 44 mph top 130 mph
N847WL

Have there been any mods/changes or is the airplane still origonal as built?

 

[Doran Jaffas]

Have there been any mods/changes or is the airplane still origonal as built?

I'd be interested in more information myself.

 

[TFF]

I remember when that super light Tailwind was built. It was a big deal on the yahoo Tailwind group. That plane was definitely pushed.
Remember you can’t be denied and fly LSA. You have to just not get a medical, but if you do you can’t fail. You have to pass, get your license and let it laps, if you have to deal with a failed medical.

 

[stanislavz]

I'd be interested in more information myself.

Mee too. It is already in UL eu category if flaps/rotax 912 considered.

 

[edwisch]

Lotsa misinformation here, so let me try to clarify (without adding more misinformation...):
* A Sport Pilot can fly *any* airplane that meets LSA speed, weight and other criteria. That includes Standard Category and Experimental, Amateur Built. (Absolutely positive on this one);
* A plane that has been certified to numbers beyond LSA cannot have the paperwork re-done to comply with LSA numbers (pretty sure on this one);
* E-LSA means that the airframe manufacturer has jumped through the hoops to demonstrate that the airframe complies with LSA standards, and has put out a kit so that the airframe can be built outside the factory. And, that kit has to be 100.0% conforming to factory specifications when built, including engine, prop, avionics, etc. However, once built to 100.0% spec and flight tested, it can then be modified. (Positive on this one);

So:
* Join EAA
* Read the regs, they're not that hard to understand.

Be safe, be well!

Ed

 

[samyguy]

Pretty much as built, in 2005. A-75 motor. Guy I got it from had put an Aluminum prop and 8:00x6 tires and wheels.
Went back to the original wood prop an tires and wheels.

 

[Richard Roller]

Lotsa misinformation here, so let me try to clarify (without adding more misinformation...):
* A Sport Pilot can fly *any* airplane that meets LSA speed, weight and other criteria. That includes Standard Category and Experimental, Amateur Built. (Absolutely positive on this one);
* A plane that has been certified to numbers beyond LSA cannot have the paperwork re-done to comply with LSA numbers (pretty sure on this one);
* E-LSA means that the airframe manufacturer has jumped through the hoops to demonstrate that the airframe complies with LSA standards, and has put out a kit so that the airframe can be built outside the factory. And, that kit has to be 100.0% conforming to factory specifications when built, including engine, prop, avionics, etc. However, once built to 100.0% spec and flight tested, it can then be modified. (Positive on this one);

So:
* Join EAA
* Read the regs, they're not that hard to understand.

Be safe, be well!

Ed

Just a comment on weight changes. Once you up a certified a/c weight above LSA weights (ex. Ercoupe 415C or CD to D) you can't return it to the prior weight.

 

[atypicalguy]

The elusive LSA Tailwind. On the Tailwind group, one claimed to have built one with a O-200 and at Oshkosh someone gave out revised wingtip airfoil info that was supposed to drop the stall. There is a thing called a Daphne that was a not quite TW and pre plans built Buttercup like plane. Every once in a while a set of plans show up or a plane shows up on barnstormers.

The tailwind wing spar is too thin to extend the wing as built. If you want a different wing, you will need to do homework. A W8 with a small Continental, no electrical, starter, radio is a much more docile plane than the RV upseter W10. You have to make it light, like 600 lb empty like it was designed to be. I believe the W8 airfoil is flat bottomed. It’s different than the W10.

Have you run some numbers on the spar? Just wondering if that is common knowledge or other people have looked hard at it.

 

[atypicalguy]

And one graph (do not know its source anymore) On magic carpet lift from fuselage :

View attachment 101841

Yes but the windshield is usually modified to have more rake and a smoother transition to the top of the wing now, so it is probably less peaky than that. Someone just posted a really nice set of bent windscreen tubes on the FB tailwind group.

 

[Doran Jaffas]

Have you run some numbers on the spar? Just wondering if that is common knowledge or other people have looked hard at it.

My W8 has the new? wing with trapezoid tips. Semi semetrical airfoil. 24 ' span. 0-200 A for pilot cooling.
Stall clean is 60 mph.
Stall with flaps is 50 mph.
Top speed right now is 145 mph.
Final at 85 mph.
Over the fence at 75 mph.

These numbers are at gross weight of 1260 lbs.
80 deg. far. day with relative humidity of 70 percent. 3,000 MSL.

As designed the Tailwind W8 does not qualify for LSA. Make a look alike that is lighter with lower speeds and call it something else and there you go.

 

[stanislavz]

For me, personally Tailwind is kind of tesla cybertruck. Boxy - but it still looks cool, and flies even better.

I am not ready to design my own plane from zero. But - i may use inspirations from all possible places. Kind of Ol ironsides - one seat tailwind with wooden frame an fiberglass panel cover. Because plywood was too expensive to author.

Take some pultrusion in plave of wood, add some curvature to panels and make them from cf - and it starts to look more logical. Place some rotax in place of lycoming - and your cg is in totally wrong place

 

[Doran Jaffas]

I will agree. I was just talking to a friend of mine today that owns a Midget Mustang.
The Tailwind is very boxy when you look at the fuselage. It is basically a slab-sided rectangle of steel tube and fabric. It does have a curvature which has been proven to develop lift above 70 mph. It slips like a rock when you have both not just a flaps in and full deflection. you look straight down and that's just about where you're going to land. Extremely controllable. For what it is it is a very fast and efficient airplane. Are there faster airplanes with less horsepower? Yes absolutely. But the Tailwind has a history behind it that you are flying as well and I appreciate that history every time I climb into the cockpit, hit the starter button, taxi out and feel that wonderful thing we call lift as I climb toward a new adventure. That is felt with many other airplanes and has been felt with all of the airplanes that I have flown. The Tailwind though is special in many ways that other aircraft will not be especially when you consider the designer, in the early history of the experimental aircraft movement.p

 

[stanislavz]

Boxy do not have to mean not sexy or slow.

Just in comparision with ch701 - both boxy, but TW have much better flying efficiency. 701 will glide like a rock

 

[Doran Jaffas]

So did my Tri Pacer! However the zenith will take off and land a lot shorter than the Tailwind. So it depends on what type of performance you're looking for.