# Why battery-powered aircraft will never have significant range

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#### tspear

##### Well-Known Member
An industry will not recover unless airplanes get a LOT cheaper, and in light of the cost of electric cars, that doesn't seem likely.
I have been watching EVs for a while. since my older brother leased a leaf back in 2012 ish. Back then to purchase a car with a 200 mile range you were looking at a six figure car. Five years ago it was in the high 5 figures. Now, you can get one around 50K.

Give it another five years, and i believe it will be in the 35K range....

Tim

#### blane.c

Two years ago you could lease an all electric Ionic for $79 a month advertised on tv, it was more by the time you got out of the dealership but still less than$130 a month with scratch and ding insurance and all the song and dance. Of course your pl and pd insurance is on top of that, but pretty cheap driving. I got one of the hybrids for $20 a month more. #### Sraight'nlevel ##### Well-Known Member BBerson has it right - no way am I exchanging the$10,000 battery pack that I bought and cared for know, with one that has been exchanged and recharged by numerous pilots/facilities.

Gas is much more consistent in quality, as it comes out of a few refineries, and yet we still check for water and contaminants.
Part 103 plane can have 3000 usd batteries.

In the future there may be swappable batteries.

#### Hot Wings

##### Grumpy Cynic
Log Member
Why re-invent? Use the standards from cars, they already exist.
While I agree with the idea, and it is probably sound, all I could think of is the existing standard we got stuck with for our headphones.

#### BBerson

##### Light Plane Philosopher
I will take one of the used Bolts off their hands so the government doesn’t need to bail out GM again. (Crushing costs like the GM Impact)

#### Saville

##### Well-Known Member
Part 103 plane can have 3000 usd batteries.

In the future there may be swappable batteries.
You can't bounce back and forth limiting the discussion to ultralights but then talk about long range flights in non-ultralights aircraft.

"In the future..."

We've heard that hundreds of times over the last 60 or so years.

WHEN you have this set up and working for general aviation non-ultralights and everybody willing to swap out $10k battery packs they've bought and cared for for battery packs of unknown origin (and don't think the government won't slap regs on those), then do let us know. I am interested in now. Promises for the future are worthless. "There may be..." must always be accompanied by "There may not be..." and so aren't really useful for a discussion of what will be. #### Aesquire ##### Well-Known Member Part 103 plane can have 3000 usd batteries. Great! That's WAY cheaper than the$18000 I saw last I looked. Where?

How many minutes of climb? 5?

#### Rhino

##### Well-Known Member
While I agree with the idea, and it is probably sound, all I could think of is the existing standard we got stuck with for our headphones.
There's a standard?

#### tspear

##### Well-Known Member
You mean one of those that the manufacturer says to avoid parking within 50 feet of another car or any building?

Chevy Bolt EV owners live ‘nightmare’ awaiting battery-fire fix
If I needed a car, I would take one in a heart beat. Right now, my wife and I average about 6K miles a year on a single car, which includes multiple road trips. We have gone as long as two months without getting gas So I would just charge to 80% and be just fine.

I will take one of the used Bolts off their hands so the government doesn’t need to bail out GM again. (Crushing costs like the GM Impact)
GM has very little of the liability.GM is only paying 100 million for the recall, the battery supplier got stuck with 1.9 Billion (I believe LG or Samsung, I do not recall which one)
You get to use the car for a couple years before they replace the battery.

Tim

#### Sraight'nlevel

##### Well-Known Member
You can't bounce back and forth limiting the discussion to ultralights but then talk about long range flights in non-ultralights aircraft.

"In the future..."

We've heard that hundreds of times over the last 60 or so years.

WHEN you have this set up and working for general aviation non-ultralights and everybody willing to swap out $10k battery packs they've bought and cared for for battery packs of unknown origin (and don't think the government won't slap regs on those), then do let us know. I am interested in now. Promises for the future are worthless. "There may be..." must always be accompanied by "There may not be..." and so aren't really useful for a discussion of what will be. Yes I agree...now we don't have swappable batteries. Great! That's WAY cheaper than the$18000 I saw last I looked. Where?

How many minutes of climb? 5?
Yes you don't have to climb above the clouds to reach 150 miles.

#### Dusan

##### Well-Known Member
Again, no, those comments are not true for all motors.

BJC
Losses at high loading are mostly I2R, and not entering into details, max power is transferred when total power is twice the losses, so efficiency is 50%. This is regardless of motor type; Would you care to explain if you have other opinion?

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
Here is a document from WSU that you might find informative https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f15/amo_motors_handbook_web.pdf

Larger induction motors get better efficiencies. Somewhere around 300 HP, full load efficiencies were (are) around 96%. Big motors do even better.

Haven’t dealt with large synchronous motors in many years, but they were (are) pretty good, too, and can help control reactive current.

BJC

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Larger induction motors get better efficiencies.
kW/kg= ??? (BLDC circa 10...)

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
kW/kg= ??? (BLDC circa 10...)
Large motors typically are designed for high energy efficiency, not kW/kg, which is a very appropriate metric for aircraft motors.

BJC

#### Bill-Higdon

##### Well-Known Member
If I needed a car, I would take one in a heart beat. Right now, my wife and I average about 6K miles a year on a single car, which includes multiple road trips. We have gone as long as two months without getting gas So I would just charge to 80% and be just fine.

GM has very little of the liability.GM is only paying 100 million for the recall, the battery supplier got stuck with 1.9 Billion (I believe LG or Samsung, I do not recall which one)
You get to use the car for a couple years before they replace the battery.

Tim
Like the Takata airbags fiasco

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
high

energy efficiency,

not kW/kg, which is a very appropriate metric for aircraft motors.
BLDC (Direct Curent !) and Synchronous Motors +SRMotors have >90 %

and Power/Weight >10 ...

#### tspear

##### Well-Known Member
I thought this was interesting.

I looked around but could not find (and also did not know how to correctly search for) comparable metrics for ICE planes. e.g. what is the fastest climb to 3000 meters for an ICE....

Note: these all records are very short duration, for which electric does well. Does not address longer duration issues...

Tim