Where are the fast high wing LSA kits?

[Midniteoyl]

To BBerson, Midniteoyl, & others confused about E-LSAs...

I'm still confused. I read the article posted by Midniteoyl (by Ron Wanttaja: http://www.kitplanes.com/sportplanes/0505-3740.pdf ) and I get one set of rules. Yet, when I looked at the Pipistrel website, they offer up another set of rules. See: Sinus Virus and Taurus Motorgliders by Pipistrel Mercy!

Can anyone clarify this? If you buy an E-SLA kit, can you put in a different EFIS (that is a technology which is changing FAST), and autopilot? Or, do you have to build as specified, then rip out the stuff you don't want and replace it with the stuff you do want?

Seems like a strange way to build an aircraft.

Incidentally, the Pipistrel aircraft performed well in the CAFE (NASA sponsored) contests - under what seems like rigorously fair conditions. Too bad more LSAs don't enter that competition - it might give us a better idea of the relative merits of different LSA aircraft.

(Fly safe) MalcolmW

PS: Orion - I've asked Paradise aircraft for a clarification on the structure of their P-1 LSA and Brazilian version.

BB answered one...

As for the other.. Yes. As far as I can tell, you must build the plane as the factory did. No exceptions. Once you get the approvals, you can then modify the plane as you see fit as long as it still conforms to the intent of LSA. You can also buy a built SLSA and convert it to ELSA in order to modify it.

This is why if you go this route, buy the one with the cheapest, lowest count, factory approved instrumentation

 

[MalcolmW]

Hello, George Sychrovsky;

please note that I specified the Flight Design CTLS (not the CTsw which weighs less), which has a dry weight of 770lb, and when * wet *, it totals 974lb, which leaves 346 lb for payload. Not a lot in my book for *normal* adult males who average 190 lb.

Be that as it may, this world of LSA aircraft has some odd rules, particularly when the experimental aspect is added in. I wish I understood it better. I sure won't spend any money until I'm sure I know what I can and cannot do, especially in the realm of avionics. And I certainly want an aircraft that will carry two male adults and some baggage in safety - even on a hot summer day. I have no desire to push beyond safe engineered limits. Life has enough risks without begging for trouble.

Midniteoyl - well, I guess BB answered the question, sorta. What if a *manufacturer* has kits and lots of options...? Just get the basic and build it, get it (certified? accepted? blessed? sprinkled with holy water? whatever) then modify it to your heart's content? Gee, that sounds like regulatory anarchy. See my comment above about not wanting to spend money until I'm sure. I've been *burned* enough times by jumping before I knew all the rules (not in aviation). Thanks for your comments.

(Fly safe) MalcolmW

 

[Midniteoyl]

Well, normally only one configuration will be approved for each model. So you would pick the one that has been approved SLSA/ELSA. Not all of them will be as some claim 'LSA' but are actually E-AB that can be flown by an LSA Pilot. Also, as far as I can tell, if you modify the actual plane (engine, prop, airframe) you need to show you still meet LSA, which could also require a new 'fly-off' period. So not quite like E-AB. To throw more into this, ELSA can be re-registered as E-AB with all the flying restriction removed, if so desired.

What if a *manufacturer* has kits and lots of options...?

 

[Dana]

...ELSA can be re-registered as E-AB with all the flying restriction removed, if so desired.

I don't believe this is correct; it can be E-AB only if you do 51% of the building work, etc., but you can't re-register an existing aircraft E-AB. I believe there is a provision to convert a SLSA to ELSA, perhaps this is what you were thinking.

-Dana

"Makers of oils will assure you their lubricants will last the life of the transmission. This may be true, but that life can be longer if you change the oil.

 

[Double Eagle]

I spent a lot of the Thanksgiving holidays searching for goggle photos of high wing,high speed LSA. I found a few, some were very fast, but most didn't even come close to the limits allowed by the LSA rules, and all of them were quite expensive. When I think of affordable, I'm thinking around 20K max with everything included. About the same price as a new Chevy .

Being new to building an aircraft, there are an awful lot of things I don't know or understand. One of the reasons I decided to build my own plane was I could some what control my expenses. If money was no object I would simply go out and purchase the plane of my choice. I found one high speed,LSA, high wing,folding wing, amphibious plane, but it was over a 100K! Am I one of only a few pilots/builder, that would like a scratch built E-LSA, that can be easily transported to an from an airfield that meets or exceeds the limits imposed on a LSA plane? I would also like to fly all year in comfort, so that means cabin heat. Once you start adding the cost of hanger rental/purchasing you can easily bust your retirement budget. I would like to spend my retirement years building and flying aircraft. I would love to be able to fly around the country to all of the major shows such as SUN and Fun, and Oshkosh. Maybe some of the homebuilt aircraft engineers can come up with some plans for guys,like me.

Gil
Double Eagle

 

[Midniteoyl]

I don't believe this is correct; it can be E-AB only if you do 51% of the building work, etc., but you can't re-register an existing aircraft E-AB. I believe there is a provision to convert a SLSA to ELSA, perhaps this is what you were thinking.

-Dana

I'm sorry. Thanks for pointing that out, Dana...

I ment, you can have a kit originally sold as a ELSA registered as E-AB. Of course, you would need to meet the 51% rule as stated.

So, if you have a PPL, you can buy an ELSA kit under 50% pre-finished, build it to your specs, and go flying under the E-AB rules just like any other PPL flown E-AB.

If you have a SP licence, you can still go E-AB, but it has to meet the LSA rules for speed/stall/etc. In this case, as far as I know, you do not have to build it like the factory first and can modify as you see fit (I might be wrong here), but, you could make it Night/IFR capable, then any PPL could fly when you legally could'nt, and you would have an IFR plane if/when you got a full PPL.

Another advantage of E-AB is you get the Repairman's. S/ELSA's require a training course even if you built it. Downside to this is if you sold it, the new owner would (edit) not (/edit) get the Repairman's.

 

[DaveK]

I'm pretty sure that if you sell a homebuilt the repairman's certificate does not follow the aircraft to the new owner.

 

[Midniteoyl]

would not get




Hectic day.. didnt proof read. Thanks.

 

[Dana]

...Am I one of only a few pilots/builder, that would like a scratch built E-LSA, that can be easily transported to an from an airfield that meets or exceeds the limits imposed on a LSA plane?

Gil, if it's scratch built it's not E-LSA but E-AB. If the E-AB happens to also meet the LSA requirements, then a SP can fly it, but it's still not considered a LSA. If it "exceeds the limits imposed on a LSA" (i.e. 138mph max, 51mph stall, since your interest is in "fast"), then it's just another E-AB that requires a PPL or higher to fly it.

-Dana

If people behaved like governments, you'd call the cops.

 

[Dana]

FWIW, the Zodiac CH601 XL exactly meets those speed limits (and 160mph TAS cruise at 8000').

-Dana

If people behaved like governments, you'd call the cops.

 

[MalcolmW]

Okay, Midniteoyl, Dana;

you guys obviously know the LSA rule far better than me. But I'm still confused as to what a person (like me) can do with an E-LSA. I have a PPL, but like the idea of a LSA (economy and eventual need to go SP).

So, I'd like to have a plane that will fly faster than the LSA limit now, but can be *detuned* down to the LSA limits. For example, two that come to mind are the Pipistrel Virus SW, and the American Patriot II (with a Subaru engine)... well, I think they can.

But, I don't understand how to do either... Is the Pipistrel a *legal* kit that can be flown as an experimental? What is the status of the RTF version? Similarly, the AmPat II, it states that it can be LSA, but has it been (certified, blessed or whatever the FAA does - I have no idea).

If it sounds that I'm at the hair-pulling stage, I apologize, but the FAA gobbledygook sure confuses me.

Can you help me? Thanks! MalcolmW

 

[Dana]

If you have a PPL, then the only advantage of a LSA over a heavier or faster aircraft is that you don't need a medical, and (for E-LSA only) you can do your own annual if you get the repairman certificate.

There is no path to "detune" a faster aircraft (like the Virus SW) to become a LSA. If it's a E-AB (51%) homebuilt, then maybe, I don't know, but I think it'd be a major change, with new operating limitations, and a new test period required. But the Virus is not a 51% kit.

-Dana

Sometimes it is easier to beg forgiveness than get permission.

 

[Double Eagle]

I hold a PPL, but one day I can see where I will have to use the SP rating as I have two coronary stents. I was one of the first if not the first PP to have been issued a special medical using a stent in 1992. My cardiologist had to go to Oklahoma City to personally plead my case. I have plans for Serial number 5629 Zodiac CH 601 XL. It is not my interest to just go fast, but for flying cross country it would be nice. I have flown, and owned several high wing aircraft. I have also flown several low wing aircraft, but I prefer the high wing. I have logged a lot of time in the Cessna Cardinal RG, 140,175,172,206,210,and Sky master. I like high wing planes. I flew the XL 601 at the open house in Mexico MO, and I did like it, I purchased a set of plans. I am just about finished with the construction of the fuselage and wings of my Double Eagle which will cruise around 70 MPH on an 1835 VW engine. I'm sure it will be a great aircraft for low and slow adventures, but not cross country. I have modified the wing attachment points, with the blessing of the designer, so I can easily remove and install he wings by myself. My favorite plane for the best all around flying, including operating cost was the Cessna 175 which would true out around 140MPH at six thousand feet. Out of several hundred hours of flight time in that 4 place plane, at least 95 per cent of the time I was alone. I would like to build a roomy single place aircraft that conforms with the limitations that are placed on the LSA, which will suite my needs, but I want to be able to transport it easily from my house to the air strip.

Gil

 

[Midniteoyl]

MalcolmW,

Dont know the specifics on the planes your asking about, however, if you want to 'go fast' now and build and register an E-AB craft due to higher than LSA speeds/weight or any other reason, then you cannot re-register it for E-LSA. No E-AB to E-LSA. Period. Not too sure about 'de-tuning', say, speed, to make it SP legal later.. have to check on that one. I do know that as the 'manufacturer' you have some control over those specs, but not sure how easily they can be changed after registered and approved by the FAA.


However,
If you register it as E-AB but all the specs are with-in the LSA contraints for speed, weight, landing gear, etc., then you fly as PPL (night/IFR included) until such time as you need to let your medical lapse... then you do nothing... You continue to fly using your PPL certificate and a valid drivers licence under the Sport Pilot rules and restrictions (ie, no night/IFR, etc.) The advantage here is you get the Repairmans Certificate to work on your own plane. Disadvantage is the next owner cannot get a Repairmans for that plane.


If you register it as an E-LSA to begin with, you can fly it as a PPL holder, with everything exactly the same as above, except you must take a 16 hour course to get a Repairmans/Inspection certificate to work on your own plane. Advantage here is the next SP you sell the LSA to can work on it if he takes the course, so there might be a slightly higher incentive to buy a used ELSA as apposed to a used E-AB. Worth it? Prolly not unless you intend to sell. Your best bet is to bite the bullet, make the fastest E-AB you can that fits with-in the LSA rules and go from there.

 

[Midniteoyl]

After looking at the Virus SW 912, I think what you have in mind will get you killed: The Vne is only 10-13 knots faster than cruise. And Va is only 73 knots? Not a very strong craft, especially not one to 'make faster'.

And its not a kit...

 

[Topaz]

After looking at the Virus SW 912, I think what you have in mind will get you killed: The Vne is only 10-13 knots faster than cruise. And Va is only 73 knots? Not a very strong craft, especially not one to 'make faster'....

Yeah, do remember that it's a motorglider, not really a cruising sportplane. As such, it's really intended to do most of its flying around the Vminsink and VmaxL/D speeds, which tend to be very low. This would not be a good airplane to try and "make go faster". The airfoils are wrong, the structure isn't designed for it, and I'd be willing to bet it hasn't been flutter tested up to much more than that required for the current Vne.

I'm going to take a guess here and say that "detuning" a faster airplane to LSA limits would get a very skeptical eye from the FAA. I'll bet they look at it the same way as an 'artificial' speed-limiting device for a Part-103 ultralight: The device has to be a permanent, non-removable part of the airframe. Just putting on a flatter-pitched prop or pulling off the wheel pants isn't going to cut it by that definition, since you could conceivably go back and change it later.

 

[Midniteoyl]

But I'm still confused as to what a person (like me) can do with an E-LSA. I have a PPL, but like the idea of a LSA (economy and eventual need to go SP).

There are many planes, both kits and certified, that are LSA legal but registered E-AB, don't cost much at all, with greater strength and known histories, and will fly with the speed and economy you desire, and fulfill your mission requirements while being cheaper, and cheaper to insure, than 99% of the 'purpose built' LSA's.

For more, go here; http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/likely_lsa.html

 

[Midniteoyl]

Experimental amateur-built aircraft that meet the definition of an LSA may be flown by sport pilots. The aircraft is certificated as experimental amateur-built and must be operated in accordance with the operating limitations issued to the aircraft at the time it receives its airworthiness certification. It must be maintained and inspected in accordance with regulations as they pertain to amateur-built aircraft. Its annual condition inspection may be performed by the original primary builder if he/she holds the repairman certificate for the aircraft, an A&P mechanic, or a certified repair station.

Likely Candidates for Light Sport Aircraft

I dont think you can 'detune' to make a non-LSA E-AB, LSA.

 

[MalcolmW]

Midniteoyl, Dana, Double-Eagle;

thank you for your responses, which I've read and thought about.

In the case of the Pipistrel Virus SW, I do note that it has a max load factor tested at +7.2G & -7.2G, and it does have a Vne that is about 10 kts higher than max cruise. Does this jibe? Or, is it a case of some other weakness that makes the plane *unsafe*?

It's my read of the Virus SW description that it can come with a fixed pitch prop AND qualify as a LSA, but when it has a constant speed prop, it has to be experimental. Is this a correct read? If so, could I fly it as an *experimental* and when I go SP, put on a fixed pitch prop and make it a LSA?

This kind of fits in with what Midniteoyl suggested in his last posting - maybe... or am I misreading your comments?

Incidentally, this aircraft was flown and competed successfully in the CAFE (NASA sponsored) competition in 2007 & 2008, and flew at speeds in excess of its Vne... So, once again, I'm beyond my limit of understanding (I have no training in aeronautical engineering) and so, don't know how to analyze the data.

Also, a Lightning (low-wing aircraft) can be both E-LSA and E-AB (faster than LSA speed limit) depending upon landing strut fairings & other drag reduction tricks. Another *chameleon* aircraft, which could (?) be changed back and forth. Oh, mercy, I am confused.

I hate to keep bugging you guys (and I do appreciate your insight and understanding), but your comments are helping. I'll get it one of these days.

(fly safe) MalcolmW

 

[MalcolmW]

Hello, Orion, George Sychrovsky, BBerson;

I contacted Paradise Aircraft's office in the US with the questions about the MTOW of the Brazilian version and the USA LSA version, and this is their response:

From: "sales@paradiseaircraft.us" sales@paradiseaircraft.us

'Thank you for your interest in our P-1 aircraft, the work Load is +4 -2 and there are no differences between our LSA version and the Brazilian experimental, which has a 1650 lbs max. take off. I also would like to invite you to visit us during the 2009 US Sport Aviation Expo here in Sebring, FL this January 22-25 and schedule a demo ride. Once again, thank you for your email and please let me know if you need any additional information.

Best Regards, Christopher L. Regis Sales & Marketing Paradise USA LLC
446 Hendricks Field Way Sebring, FL 33870

Paradise Aircraft

Ph: 1-561-215-4570 Fax: 1-561-686-7999 '

Well, I suppose we have to take them at their word, however, I'd sure like to have the comments from those who know more aeronautical engineering than myself as to whether this is a case of capacity 'over-statement,' or a case of slipping an over-built ('normal category) aircraft into the LSA category.

Thank you in anticipation of your thoughtful response.

MalcolmW