# What is an affordable ultralight?

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#### quick582

##### Member
I'm not sure why the 4 strke is a requirement, but that aside, an MX Quicksilver is around $4000.00 for a nice one, and a GT 400 is around$10,000.00. Both are huge bang for the buck, especially the GT 400.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
I'm not sure why the 4 strke is a requirement, ...
If you are referring to my criteria for a “groundbreaking” ultralight design, it is because that is what I would be comfortable with.

BJC

#### cluttonfred

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
I think you’d better have that understanding with the controller before trying that at most fields. I have only done engine-outs at quiet, uncontrolled fields and that rarely.

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
I think you’d better have that understanding with the controller before trying that at most fields. I have only done engine-outs at quiet, uncontrolled fields and that rarely.
No argument there!

Post #40 ...... landing priority if there is a good understanding between pilot and controller.

Since the engine may be needed to taxi clear of the runway it is probably best to start on short final but I hate doing that, takes away the sweet feel of it. Kind of like starting the engine on a sailboat just so you can get into the dock.

It can be hard to know what the controller is thinking when the motor glider calls 7 miles out at 3,000 feet unless you have had that discussion while on the ground prior to flight. Perhaps it is just best to call "Experimental" if no priority is required and see what the reaction is when and if he (the controller) notices the prop is not turning.

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#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
It can be hard to know what the controller is thinking when the motor glider calls 7 miles out at 3,000 --- see what the reaction is when and if he (the controller) notices the prop is not turning.

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#### JamesF

I think that the problem is the availability of a 4 stroke 40 hp (+or-) engine at a price of around $5000. Given that, all the other problems are not insurmountable. The bad news is, given the size of the market, It isn’t possible to build such an engine and enjoy the economies of scale. i recall reading about a UK engine designed with the prop being driven by the camshaft. The camshaft was gear driven from the crankshaft and was geared down around 2 to 1. I cant recall the designers name. He was a auto racer and died before the the design came to fruition. I don’t know anything about engine design. one of you guys who do ought to pick up that idea and rub with it! james #### Hot Wings ##### Grumpy Cynic HBA Supporter Log Member #### TFF ##### Well-Known Member Since Continental built an engine called the Tiera that used the cam gear as a reduction, the overwhelming conclusion was, don’t. The props inertia would throttle the engine because it would retard or advance the cam timing. Continental has tried to erase the engine from memory like Lycoming trying to erase the O-320H2AD. #### cluttonfred ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter We’ve been through this low-cost question before and the conclusion is usually that a modest single-seat LSA/microlight that can use a basic VW or industrial V-twin conversion is cheaper or at least no more expensive than a Part 103/SSDR type. That said, Mike Sandlin’s Bloop is a perfect example of a more recent low cost Part 103 type. #### bmcj ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter Groundbreaking would be to find an affordable UL, then get six people to buy three of them. That way, you cut the cost in half, share the maintenance chores, and can usually get at least two or three that want to fly out as part of a group flight on any given weekend. If one goes down for maintenance, two more are still up and running, so you don’t really suffer any down time. As far as cheap, I believe some of the Airdrome Aeroplanes are supposed to be affordable. #### BJC ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter It's also tricky at an uncontrolled field. If you arrive dead stick but call "motorglider" entering for landing they don't give way. If you call "glider" they tend to freak out and ask what to do. Sometimes I want to just slip in unannounced. I guess that's why they built Estrella Sailport. So if you announce that you are a glider, and I announce an emergency because my engine isn’t running, who has the right-of-way? BJC #### Dana ##### Super Moderator Staff member I think that the problem is the availability of a 4 stroke 40 hp (+or-) engine at a price of around$5000. Given that, all the other problems are not insurmountable. The bad news is, given the size of the market, It isn’t possible to build such an engine and enjoy the economies of scale.
Hummel half VWs are in that HP and price range.

##### Well-Known Member
As far as cheap, I believe some of the Airdrome Aeroplanes are supposed to be affordable.

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
I am sure you know the rules in 91.113. Generally the lower aircraft or one most in "distress" gets right of way.
I am always prepared to land on the taxiway if needed.
BJC ref post # 54 I expect you know the answer and it is not 91.113. As soon as you declare an emergency regardless of whether broadcast or not you have the right of way if needed.

Lets get back on topic. The North Wing ATF is an example of an affordable Ultralight depending on who you are. But $30,000 for a high performance soaring Ultralight trike is a bit much for many even if it does have a good 4 cycle engine. I can offer a slightly used one (less than 10 hours) for under$20,0000. Does anyone think that is affordable? How many will offer $10,000? I expect at$10,000 it would disappear overnight but how many would give that? What is the size of the market.

If I offered similar performance in a three axis multi engine motorglider could I sell 10 a month for 10 years at $15,000 each? Vote yes or no. I will try to put the poll link here shortly. No luck with Log in to your account Could I sell 10 per month mult (four cycle) engine three axis control soaring Ultralights for 10 years at$15,000 USD ready to fly? 1,200 total units. Estimated minimum sink 3.5 ft / sec. L/D 10:1 at 35 mph. Fits in a 8.5 x 20 foot trailer. YES NO

What revised price point would you like in order to meet this sales goal?

I gave up, have to get back to work.

§91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

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#### Dana

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
The North WIng ATF is $15.4K. M-Squared doesn't list a price on their website for their Breese XL (Quicksilver clone), but it would probably be around the same price... they're offering a new one sans engine and prop for$10K. The problem is that companies have a hard time selling new ultralights for that kind of money when there are so many flyable used ones out there under \$5K.