What happened to the Ultravair?

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TLAR

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reo12

the home built world has a need for a four stroke 40hp engine. I don’t care about the 103 regs because I am an outlaw.
But most want to conform.
It seems like David has the right to do what ever he wants.
I’m glad you are telling the story, no we know

It was a great idea and it looks like it’s time may be at hand
 

skyguynca

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reo12, what is your name? I talked with William many years ago and he put me on to Fletcher. You seem to be hiding behind a screen name.
Please post facts with your evidence. I have the COMPLETE yahoo group database. So tell me who you are and I will look up your accusations to see if the proof is there.

As far as rights, the copyright was under Fletcher Burns, you could have sued him if you wanted. Right now you are saying things that I do not believe are true because of the people I talked with including William Wynn who said he worked on the project with Fletcher.

I am not calling you a liar, but I proved openly that I was given the rights and to "go for it" as Fletcher said.

So now give your name, and your evidence.
 

Topaz

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Moderator Note: You both are pretty new here, so you may not have read through the forum rules. Nobody needs to "prove" who they are here. This is a discussion forum, not a court of law. If you two gentlemen think you have a legal dispute, this thread and this forum are not the place to solve it. Accusations of fraud, theft, or other malfeasance are against the HBA Code of Conduct unless they have been adjudicated in a court of law.

If you'd like to continue this discussion, I recommend you either take it to PM or some other venue. This thread isn't the place for it. If you have any questions, please contact myself or any of the moderators via PM and we'll do what we can to help you understand how things work here.
 

skyguynca

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Moderator Note: You both are pretty new here, so you may not have read through the forum rules. Nobody needs to "prove" who they are here. This is a discussion forum, not a court of law. If you two gentlemen think you have a legal dispute, this thread and this forum are not the place to solve it. Accusations of fraud, theft, or other malfeasance are against the HBA Code of Conduct unless they have been adjudicated in a court of law.

If you'd like to continue this discussion, I recommend you either take it to PM or some other venue. This thread isn't the place for it. If you have any questions, please contact myself or any of the moderators via PM and we'll do what we can to help you understand how things work here.
Sorry, I will follow the HBA Code of Conduct.
 

reo12

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reo12, what is your name? I talked with William many years ago and he put me on to Fletcher. You seem to be hiding behind a screen name.

Please post facts with your evidence. I have the COMPLETE yahoo group database. So tell me who you are and I will look up your accusations to see if the proof is there.



As far as rights, the copyright was under Fletcher Burns, you could have sued him if you wanted. Right now you are saying things that I do not believe are true because of the people I talked with including William Wynn who said he worked on the project with Fletcher.



I am not calling you a liar, but I proved openly that I was given the rights and to "go for it" as Fletcher said.



So now give your name, and your evidence.
7/16/2021

Hi David.

I am certainly not hiding as I have no reason to.
My name is Ron Ohler I reside in Nashville MI. My business phone has been 517 852-1900 since 1978.

The identifier reo12 is something that folks have known me by on the various groups for decades. That and RonOhler and r-m-ohler. I know I've forgotten some identities. I've used AT&T, MCI, Triton, Sprint, Yahoo and possibly some other internet service providers over the years. You and I have been on other groups at the same time.

You posted a message to a number of groups on Feb 16, 2010 that you were looking for information from builders of a 1/3 Corvair because you were thinking of building one. Just because I did not answer you does not give any truth to your claim of me being a liar. You came along over a decade after the situation manifested.

Doug Hart - Hart Aero responded to you on Feb 17, 2010 via the VULA group to contact me. Here is the text from his post."

> David,
>
> You should ask Ron Ohler, Since he IS THE ONE that
> developed the engine mod.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Doug Hart

I do not see in my records where you chose to do so.

I set up a company named REO Air in the early 90's for my engine venture. I do not know what yahoo group database you speak of having. I was on a number of them. Never any specifically for the 1/3 Corvair as it held far to painful a place in my heart. I forget the names of many of the groups. Small 4 stroke engines, VULA, Fly UL, Comp-pilot, the various surplus military engines sites and I made prop hubs for a number of years.

According to my email record with Doug Hart, I made a post on the VULA site in January or February 2009 explaining the history of what happened. I recall Sabrina talking of a gun powder engine on one of her the surplus groups after the 1/3 Corvair came up.

I initially discussed the 1/3 Corvair concept at a UL club meeting back in the spring of 1991 or 92. I wanted to build a 4 stroke engine for my Pterodactyl to establish a record for the Worthington Cup. I'd read of the crank breakage on a 1/2VW. I had some concerns after reading that. Not knowing about "full circle" and other aftermarket VW cranks having issues - I went with what I knew - GM pushed 180 hp through a Corvair crank.. Remember - this was before the internet days. I thought - what the heck - here is something different. The Pterodactyl was so light that I could install a heavier engine and still make part 103 weight limits. Powered with a 430 Cuyuna, it could fly me around on under 1.5 gallons of fuel. I knew a 4 stroke could be more efficient. I surmised that around 1gph was possible with careful prop selection and not utilizing thermals for lift. Just simply flying. Jim Stephenson - the same person who later established Aero Sports Connection - stated a Corvair would be too heavy. He wanted me to look at motorcycle engines. I cut a case and brought it, a head and the crank with weights for each written down to our next club meeting at Turkeyville, MI. Jim was not convinced. A club member - Jerome Libbrecht - later loaned me a very old set of Morey Hummel's hand written 1/2 VW plans to look at and copy for review.

Undeterred, I started working on the engine and welded portions to the case. I was self taught TIG welding and ended up warping the case. Brett Rosenau - Jim Stephenson's brother in law - stopped into my business the very day I was line boring the case. I'd been distracted by a customer and just whoopsed and broke a new Fowler indicator forgetting to change feed directions when rapid traversing with the Cincinnati horizontal mill I was using. Brett convinced me to break down the setup on the mill and let him take the case to have line honed - assuring me that I'd get it back in a week - 2 at the most. I questioned trying to hone aluminum but he assured me that he knew some folks - a shop in Bedford MI - who could take care of it for me. I removed the case from the mill table and handed it to him. I did not see the case again for nearly 1 1/2 years. After waiting a year - I started over on another case - changing how I'd done some of the items that required welding and how I'd kept the case halves aligned. My dad - a machinist and shop teacher - kept telling me to just start out with my own castings, weldments or billet. He had prior experience working at Continental Motors machining drone engines. Then I found the prototype case sitting on a shop cart at Brett's friend's farm implement business - where it had been all that time. Nothing had been done to it.

While waiting for Brett to return my engine case, I had met with a retired graphic artist in Battle Creek that a friend knew. We discussed the name and various variations and script styles. UltraVair, Ultra-vair, Ultra Vair, etc. He quickly sketched out some of our thoughts. I had some ideas for marketing slogans and artwork. I felt I needed to provide some owners manuals for the engine. Remember - I was going to do the manufacturing. Not just sell plans. I needed a manual for the engine.

I contacted Patrick Panzera when he claimed it was Fletcher's idea well over 10 years ago. He refused to discuss it with me. I commented on a group of how he could take one of his magazines and make very personal "Contact" with it and his behind. I contacted William Wynne around May 2009 when I discovered that he was supposed to take over from Fletcher. His response was something like "I consider it to be a case of 2 different people coming up with a similar idea at the same time". Like many others - he didn't care if there was documentation supporting my claims or not.

I have this information contained in a email exchange with Doug Hart - Hart Aero from August 2009.

I think I still have the prototype engine case in the old shop building. I lost most of my facility - over 7,000 sq/ft and all of the newest machinery when a 6 alarm fire consumed the main plant and the separate office building Sept 2019. 40 years of my life and work lost. I have a separate building that the fire departments kept from catching on fire. It houses the original shop where I started the engine work. The office was one of the buildings that burned.


I do not like having you or anyone else infer that I am dishonest. I have stated the truth. Sorry if you do not like the truth. I have witnesses that discussed the concept with me and saw my prototype engine case YEARS before Fletcher claimed it was his idea. The original group post I made that lead Fletcher to contact me was on a Yahoo group. I've publicly stated it was my original art from day one. Fletcher first had it published that it was his idea some 4 months after he contacted me. Fletcher was well able to file suit to try to defend his honor and false claims while the data proving otherwise was readily available. He did not. I personally had my fill of the US courts system and chose to go on with my life.

As I said - I walked away from the 1/3 Corvair - releasing the use of the names and concept to the public domain. Plans were available for free for some time. The EAA offered them and while I tried to get a copy just for interest sake - their system caused my computer to lock up and I never had my request fulfilled. Given that Fletcher did not charge you for what ever rights that he gave you - they clearly have limited commercial value.
 

wanttobuild

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I joined the Corvair Facebook group, and while glancing through the info I noticed WW has a thrust bearing that does not require case machining
 

wanttobuild

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My hope is that everyone involved in the Ultravair can get along and focus on how to get a bunch of engines up in the air powering a propeller.

Pops is the resident VW guy but I'm sure he would say the Vair will make an excellent two cylinder four stroke engine. I don't know Pops so I don't want to speak for him.

Can we all try to get along and advance the engine?

There are numerous airframes that can use this engine.

I am well aware the conservative aircraft engine builder would not entertain the thought of squeezing the engine, but with a forged crank, rods and pistons you are leaving 10HP on the table, approaching 47HP @ approx 80lbs.

Having an additional 10HP with a flick of a switch is a luxury I am not gonna pass up.

The 1/2VW can't take the squeeze, but the Ultravair can.

Actually one needs to be able to retard the timing very slightly on the fly, or just fix the timing and fly on Nitrous full time, taking advantage of the cooling effect of the oxygen delivery vehicle...... Nitrogen.

Build a strong engine then squeeze it, no other mods necessary.
 

Flyguyeddy

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My hope is that everyone involved in the Ultravair can get along and focus on how to get a bunch of engines up in the air powering a propeller.

Pops is the resident VW guy but I'm sure he would say the Vair will make an excellent two cylinder four stroke engine. I don't know Pops so I don't want to speak for him.

Can we all try to get along and advance the engine?

There are numerous airframes that can use this engine.

I am well aware the conservative aircraft engine builder would not entertain the thought of squeezing the engine, but with a forged crank, rods and pistons you are leaving 10HP on the table, approaching 47HP @ approx 80lbs.

Having an additional 10HP with a flick of a switch is a luxury I am not gonna pass up.

The 1/2VW can't take the squeeze, but the Ultravair can.

Actually one needs to be able to retard the timing very slightly on the fly, or just fix the timing and fly on Nitrous full time, taking advantage of the cooling effect of the oxygen delivery vehicle...... Nitrogen.

Build a strong engine then squeeze it, no other mods necessary.
The only reasonable way to have that kind.of timing control would be with some sort of computer controlled ignition, like a edis4 box with a megajolt or maybe a speeduino type setup. Either way you need a 36-1 wheel on the crank. I wish it were easier to just run a distributor
 

wanttobuild

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Skyguynca

I would like to purchase a conversion manual. No rush, @ your leisure.

Do you intend to make and sell parts necessary for a successful conversion, especially the prop hub you mentioned previously, (the belt groove to drive the JD dynamo)?

Thank you

Ben Lane
Grand Rivers, Kentucky 42045
[email protected]
270-564-9161
 

reo12

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Jan 15, 2021
Messages
38
My hope is that everyone involved in the Ultravair can get along and focus on how to get a bunch of engines up in the air powering a propeller.

Pops is the resident VW guy but I'm sure he would say the Vair will make an excellent two cylinder four stroke engine. I don't know Pops so I don't want to speak for him.

Can we all try to get along and advance the engine?

There are numerous airframes that can use this engine.

I am well aware the conservative aircraft engine builder would not entertain the thought of squeezing the engine, but with a forged crank, rods and pistons you are leaving 10HP on the table, approaching 47HP @ approx 80lbs.

Having an additional 10HP with a flick of a switch is a luxury I am not gonna pass up.

The 1/2VW can't take the squeeze, but the Ultravair can.

Actually one needs to be able to retard the timing very slightly on the fly, or just fix the timing and fly on Nitrous full time, taking advantage of the cooling effect of the oxygen delivery vehicle...... Nitrogen.

Build a strong engine then squeeze it, no other mods necessary.
Nitrous adds weight for only a limited duration benefit. If you had ever supplied an engine with oxygen from a torch set you'd know how it requires a lot of flow for much benefit. It won't take long to empty a nitrous bottle. You won't be able to refill your nitrous bottle at the airports along a cross country.
 

addicted2climbing

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Well its too bad this didn't come true, never thought about the ultravair mated to the skylite, would probably make a nice ultralite.
Both parties are here on HBA, hope that they can work something out!

Might as well go ahead and squirt a little Nitrous for a little extra kick when necessary.

Addicted to climbing has the rights to the Skylite I believe and Skyguynca the Ultravair.

Maybe they can work it out!
New to this thread and yes I do own the rights to the Skylite. Been crazy busy with a work project that has kept me too busy to further the skylite for 2 years. I should be done in August with a good long break and looking to build a skylite for myself and would like to know more about the 1/3rd Corvair. Ed spoke to me about it when I bought the rights but I believe the development skylite never flew with the 1/3rd Corvair but that is 2nd hand from Ed so could be wrong.

Despite being busy I have lined up a guy who will provide all the weldments, fuselage and rudder for the Skylite and I plan to get a test fuselage made very soon. If it pans out I should have a fuselage kit ready soon and this will jumpstart my ability to work on the remaining kit sub assemblies.

skyguynca, I see your in San Jose. I am in Burbank CA so if you make good progress on the 1/3rd corvair, I could fly up to see you. What is the best muni airport to your location.

Best regards,

Marc
 

skyguynca

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Hey guys. Lots of plans coming up just tight on time. With the restrictions finally being lifted after a year, I am sure alot of you are feeling it too.....super busy in the regular world. I am hoping to be able to dedicate more time and resources to the UltraVair and to interested parties.

David
 

wanttobuild

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I am crazy busy, still workin for a living, but not for much longer.
Gonna keep up with your offerings David, I located the manual, so am getting up to speed.
I have the plans for the Skylite from Marc, so we will see.
Ben
 
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