# What do you think about "e-soaring"?

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#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
=thanks big L/D motorless glider is good flyer...

then,aspatially in case of old single place gliders it is possible to mount on the orginal nase motor/propeller (FES like!)
Technically is possible to install "FES like" system on old gliders. Problems starts with papers. Gliders are usually certified by CAA (FAA) and this modification is practically impossible without change of Type Certificate. That can be done only by Type Certificate holder so it means very close cooperation with producer. Or you have to move your glider into experimental category.
Also MTOM can be a problem for gliders without water balast. As you cannot make large structural modifications you have to install battery somewhere in fuselage behind pilot = battery holder must survive a lot of g-force (over 12g if I remember well). Also pylon must be designed the way that during impact cannot fall into cockpit.
You have to follow technical requirements also when you make new design, however than you can install batterie for example in the wings.

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
It seems a lot quieter.
Yes, during horizontal flight Phoenix needs only 12 kW of power. With optimally adjusted prop is very quiet. Electric Phoenix has installed in-flight adjustable / feathering prop WoodComp Varia, diameter 1,6 m.

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
The thing I like about 2 wing mounted motors, is that they can be smaller, less expensive, less reliable hobby motors. If you use two independent motor/speed control systems, then assuming both are running at take off, if one side fails, the other can still sustain flight and get you back to the field and pointed into the wind. I haven't checked the math but I'll bet using one side only for sustained flight isn't too bad...just a little rudder correction.
As project Euroglider shows - "twin pushed" motor configuration is possible. It will be only not that easy to change configuration (=remove motors).
Depend what are your requirements...
"In my case I want to be able to remove the pod easily and use auto tows on light days when I have help. Or put the pod back on for days where I'm alone, or the lift is a little stronger, or I want to work an area but be able to motor out of it.
So yeah it's like making a very light glider THEN modifying it any day I want to.
"

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Or you have to move your glider into experimental category.

-yes,for fan only !

("FES like", mounted via towing huuck , E- or IC opposite =36 HP, 20 kg )

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#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
-yes,for fan only !

("FES like", mounted via towing huuck , E- or IC opposite =36 HP, 20 kg )
SZD-22C Mucha Standard is originally two seater so should be not a problem to stay in designed MTOM after rebuilding into experimental motorglider

Nice retro TMG - especially undercarriage looks professionally and strong

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
"MUCHA ST" =1 place
Than must be engine installation (and pilot) really light

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Than must be engine installation (and pilot) really light

-yes,
20 kg engine/propeller/nacell +5 kg petrol (2T mix.)

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member

-my old Fellow was confirm "river surfing"=costless surfing paralel to the big boat...

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
Seems that Silent Twister fuselage can have many different modifications

But I still prefer this electric version

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
I am really amazed by this flying bicycles projects....
1962, No high end carbon materials, no computers, no CNC machines or 3D printing. Just enthusiasm.
And look at that results

Adding few kW of power and that airplane probably could make whole circuit or climb into thermals

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Just enthusiasm.

+good knolage...

(probably pilot drived wheel =better acceleration)

-bischen better ?

or (am besten, SIMPLEST !)

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#### EzyBuildWing

##### Well-Known Member
maybe Rolls Royce's new "small modular nuclear reactors" will replace fossil-fueled boilers, and save the day.....?....

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
"E-glider" category has advantage of a very low energy consumption.
"Small" modular nuclear reactors are solution for whole town
I was thinking about something much smaller and less complicated - for example like this....

(sorry - that web is only in Czech language, but you can use google translator)
For price under 1 500 EUR (incl. Czech 21% VAT) you can have small solar system able to recharge your battery slowly over working days. As a bonus could be used to power alarm system or web camera and small meteostation

#### EzyBuildWing

##### Well-Known Member
There we go........Nissan is going to "reduce the cost of batteries by 65% to an estimated $75 per kWh through the introduction of.... " Great for cars, boats, planes, paramotors, houses....... Sounds good! Nissan announced its plans to invest ~$17.6B in the next five years to meet its goal of 50% of its sales being electric vehicles by 2030.
The automaker plans to introduce 20 new electric vehicle and e-power models by 2026.

• Nissan plans for electric vehicles to constitute 40% of its U.S. sales in 2030.
• The automaker is seeking to reduce the cost of batteries by 65% to an estimated $75 per kWh through the introduction of all-solid-state batteries by 2028. • Nissan aims to localize manufacturing and sourcing through new locations in Europe by 2022 and in the U.S. by 2025. • The auto company plans to invest up to ~$176M in charging infrastructure, including its commercialization of its "vehicle-to-everything" and home battery systems during the mid-2020s.

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
There we go........Nissan is going to "reduce the cost of batteries by 65% to an estimated $75 per kWh through the introduction of.... " Great for cars, boats, planes, paramotors, houses....... Sounds good! Nissan announced its plans to invest ~$17.6B in the next five years to meet its goal of 50% of its sales being electric vehicles by 2030.
The automaker plans to introduce 20 new electric vehicle and e-power models by 2026.

• Nissan plans for electric vehicles to constitute 40% of its U.S. sales in 2030.
• The automaker is seeking to reduce the cost of batteries by 65% to an estimated $75 per kWh through the introduction of all-solid-state batteries by 2028. • Nissan aims to localize manufacturing and sourcing through new locations in Europe by 2022 and in the U.S. by 2025. • The auto company plans to invest up to ~$176M in charging infrastructure, including its commercialization of its "vehicle-to-everything" and home battery systems during the mid-2020s.
Seems that difference between prices of automotive batteries and batteries for airplanes is increasing. Over 1 000,- EUR / 1 kWh (sport airplanes) vs expected 75,- USD (automotive)...

Now is necessary to find way how to use automotive batteries in sport airplanes
Or how to convince automotive producers to sell us batt. packs - even price between 150-200 USD / 1 kWh would be great

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
Ideal situation would be if automotive producers could use batteries made from small modules.
For example...

One of usefull battery pack with reasonable size is this one.
3 kWh, 57 V, 19 kg.
Unfortunatelly this one is practically not available anymore....

Another nice sample - module from Audi e-Tron.
10,8 V, 2,5 kWh 13 kg (only voltage is too low - woud be necessary to use at least 4-6 modules)
More detailed info is here:

Of course could by also whole battery if size and weight is reasonable - like batteries from ZERO motorcycles.

Problem of all this battery modules is a bit higher weight in compare with battery packs made especially for airplanes.
However positive is higher safety - for example Audi e-Tron module is in metal case so in case of fire is airplane structure protected (at least for some time). Also due to serial production I expect high quality of production.

For amateur builders this could be a way if battery packs are somehow available. Even at prices arround 200 USD / 1 kWh would be very good