# What do you think about "e-soaring"?

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#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
=yes,not clean,but very practical solution ...
Why you think is not clean?
I can´t imagine cleaner way how to fly. This would be combination of electric and human power. In fact it is only practical use of actually available and easily affordable technology used every day on milions of bikes

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Why you think is not clean?
=not clean HPV...

but good in practice ! (servo-amplifier ?)

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#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Charging takes a long time. Having enough power for two launches would facilitate someone going somewhere and returning without an undue stay for charging.

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
=not clean HPV...

but good in practice ! (servo-amolifier ?)
Yes - you are right - with "pedal help" will be not clean HPV.

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
Charging takes a long time. Having enough power for two launches would facilitate someone going somewhere and returning without an undue stay for charging.
I don´t think that soon we can expect to have charging stations on small airfields.
Good start would be at least some electric plug near parking place. In EU I would like to see easy access to min. 220 V socket (ideally of course 3 phase 400 V).

Also... word "charging station" is covering many different types of charging protocols, plugs etc. Also this will need some standardization - especially in aviation.

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Well if a car can plug in, in the EU and the same car can plug in, in the USA maybe aircraft should use the same standard? Also hydrogen refueling.

#### Dusan

##### Well-Known Member
Really skewed report. The author is clearly biased towards the hydrogen economy (since he is "President of H2Gen Innovations"). The report is from 2009, since then Tesla demonstrated plenty the viability of pure electric vehicles. Anyway, the report compares only the battery specific energy vs hydrogen storage, somehow 'forgetting' the weight of the fuel cells and the auxiliary stuff which could be substantial. Pipistrel also demonstrates that electric aviation is viable for niche markets, and I only can assume that the electric aviation market will grow.

Hydrogen is not really an energy source, especially if extracted from water, since theoretically the same amount of energy is needed to extract the molecules of hydrogen from water as produced in combining the same molecules with oxygen. The hydrogen proves to be a 'storage' and not an 'energy' economy and a bad one since the hydrogen is hard to store. A lot of hydrogen is produced today by steam reforming methane and the by-product of this process is CO2, so not really a clean process. A thing that I don't understand here is why expose the methane to this complicated and expensive operations as methane readily can be more easily stored and used directly as a fuel than hydrogen. Current turbofan engines are almost 60% efficient, on par with the best fuel cells out there, so directly burning methane in them would make more sense.

Electric propulsion for aviation is not only beneficial for environmental purposes, but also enables designing of more 'cleaner' airframes - less drag, because electric propulsion needs less cooling and the motor is more compact than the equivalent ICE. Another major benefit of electrics is enabling advanced configurations: distributed propulsion, control, V/STOL.

Batteries are the major bottleneck here, but I can foresee major advancements as a lot of organisations are looking towards making cheaper and better batteries, driven by the new automotive needs, and the electric aviation will only benefit from this.

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Battery energy density is not likely to improve much, Lithium being as light as you can go realistically.
Hydrogen fuel "if" produced from green energy is "green" and is more energy dense than batteries are likely ever to be. Building a sustainable infrastructure to use green energy for charging batteries and producing stored hydrogen is of course a huge and expensive hurdle to get over. People ain't going to like the new tax rates associated. A good investment in lubricant is suggested.

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
To demand that aviation get its fair share of transportation funding from the governments involved if successful will go a long way towards insuring aviation has a future.

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
Governament funding used to build net of superchargers on airfields?
That is far too optimistic....
Is not only about "the box with plug" you need also grid able to transfer high power energy.
This will be possible on big airports, not on small airfields.

There is a border between sport LSA aviation and GA.
GA is typically working with much higher power in compare with LSA.
LSA airplanes are OK with engines from 60 kW.
And for horizontal flight you need power 12-25 kW.
12 kW TMG Phoenix
15-17 kW Pipistrel Velis (Alpha Electro)
25 kW Eurostar etc...

So...
To make it simple, just multiply power requested for horizontal flight with endurance.

Sample....
Lets take 25 kW and endurance 2 hours + 30 min reserve.
25 x 2,5 = 62,5 kWh
By the way... this battery will have weight over 300 kg
After 2 hours flight you will need to recharge 50 kW of energy.
From 15 kW power source it will take between 3,5-4 hours.
You cannot take 15 kW power from typical 220 V plug. You need 400 V / 32 Amps (probably maximum you can find on EU airfields).

Yes... reality is "too real"
Therefore I don´t speak about eVTOLs....

So where to get some power on airfields without connection to strong enough electric net?
Lets look to interesting trend.
Electric cars are offering "dual mode".
It means they can be used as energy storage.
For example Ioniq 5.
Battery capacity from 58 kWh.
That is nice energy source.
Actually is offering only 3,6 kW output, but is good beginnig - can be used for electric trike or one seat self launch glider.

This feature is actually also anounced by Skoda Auto so other e-car producers will follow.
For UL and LSA sport aviation (ideally with TMG design) will be this "car power bank" system interesting option.

And how about GA and bigger airplanes?
Stay with AVGAS or MOGAS for next.... min 10 years

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
From post #1210 above:

"12 kW TMG Phoenix
15-17 kW Pipistrel Velis (Alpha Electro)
25 kW Eurostar etc... "

Is this in a power range where the aircraft could be recharged from the high power car charger?

That was my point made in post # 1195. If the government is to install 500,000 charging stations some of those should be at the "airport fence" so that power is available for the light aircraft market and the auto market. Then they can share the infrastructure. It will not solve the global warming issue if we here in the USA quit making IC autos but ignore the GA side of transportation.

If I am forced into an electric car with limited range then my airplane becomes a much more effective tool. While the interstate has made driving long distances practical light plane flying has become less practical. The market is changing and GA needs to change with it. If the change is forced by government programs and taxes then the government needs to change the entire system not just the dominant market. Otherwise the market will find an alternative to the governments forced change.

As it is now I can purchase $3 per gallon car gas or$6 per gallon avgas. The Rotax 912 likes the car gas but the airport fence is in the way*. Lets not copy that problem with avelectric.

*Many a gas can has been transported across the airport fence.

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#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
In the USA the current administration (ha ha) is going to start a ambitious project of electric infrastructure at taxpayer expense across the entire nation. It is going to happen (you should feel your wallet getting lighter as you read) so are enough of us going to yell, scream, piss and moan loud enough to get some of the money allocated for aviation or just sit idlily by and let them all be built adjacent to gas stations well away from the airport environment.

That the EU is also going to reduce greenhouse gas emissions a similar program there will have to be implemented as well (also lighter wallets) so will aviation get a share or not?

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
"so will aviation get a share or not? " Of course not. People that own airplanes are rich. Let them pay for the electric grid to save the world. Double the avgas tax same as the proposal to increase taxes on auto fuel to pay for the e-charger stations.

Does the squeaky wheel ever get greased on schedule?

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
You are lucky...
"As it is now I can purchase $3 per gallon car gas or$6 per gallon avgas."

1 US galon = 3,78 lit
In CR we actually pay 5,21 USD per galon of MOGAS (1,38 USD per lit.).
And 9,75 USD per galon of AVGAS (2,58 USD per lit.).

And this are not worst prices in EU.... For example in Austria, Netherlands and Italy are fuel prices higher.

Honestly - as Jedi wrote - I don´t expect any support for charging stations on airfields.
If they support some stations than on really large airports. Even now you have to transport fuel in jerry cans to most of EU airfields. So I can´t imagine that governament will invest into "sport flying".

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
12 kW TMG Phoenix
15-17 kW Pipistrel Velis (Alpha Electro)
25 kW Eurostar etc...

Is this in a power range where the aircraft could be recharged from the high power car charger?

Beside of different communication protocols and plugs I see as main problem in active temperature management of batteries.
If battery is too hot, than you have to wait till is cooled down before you can start re-charging. For example Tesla has a very good cooling system for batteries temp. control but this solution is too heavy for sport planes.
Active cooling = weight. Weight = smaller battery capacity. Smaller battery capacity = more problems with temperature etc....

I fly with ePhoenix with over 30 kWh battery (endurance 2 hours + reserve).
With 100 kW supercharger could take re-charge theoretically less than 30 minutes.
So far I have 10 kW charger and I didn´t noticed problems with temp. I suppose that with charging faster than 1 C will problem with temperature apear.

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member

>20 mph in water,after glaas water trinking !

#### Hephaestus

##### Well-Known Member

Anyone need a 496hp motor?

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Anyone need a 496hp motor?
please ! (500 HP, 40 kg) =left upper corner...

=two other details=RUBBER cerntrifugal clutch (+ 1 kg !!!)

BTW= old Japan Profesor Akira Chiba is the head specjalist of SR Motors
(Switched Reluctance Motor) =

NO Permanent Magnets,

only high Si +Fe thin laminates +Cu windings +Controller...

(avery coil have individual MOSFET key.)

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#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member

=SINGLE WIRE LINE =novel methode of electric energy transmission (high resistance line)...

f.e.=30 kW power thru 8 mikron W -wire !

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