# What do you think about "e-soaring"?

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#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
=iff to involve SUPERINSULATOR="AEROGEL" +little source of thermostabilisation ...?
Easier way is to keep batteries at 85-90% overnight and than use charger for short time before flight. It warms up battery to reasonable temp.

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Easier way is to keep batteries at 85-90% overnight
-right,iff NOT hard frosen...?

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
If I remember well, is possible to set up BMS system to use energy from battery for self ballancing. You can also set how much % can be used. May this could be used to keep battery "warming up" in very rare case that you have e-airplane outside during very low temp.

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member

-today Prismatic A123 LiOn have circa 110 Wh electric energy , 0.55 kg weight
( 200 Wh/kg) ,0.28 l volume ( 393 Wh/l) and price circa 30 $... #### John.Roo ##### Well-Known Member -today Prismatic A123 LiOn have circa 110 Wh electric energy , 0.55 kg weight ( 200 Wh/kg) ,0.28 l volume ( 393 Wh/l) and price circa 30$ ...
200 Wh / kg = 1 kWh / 5 kg
That is exactly what we actually use.
For example - Mr. Geiger is offering:
3,1 kWh module with weight 15,40 kg (that is 1 kWh / 4,96 kg)
or
3,5 kWh module with weight 15,50 kg (that is 1 kWh / 4,42 kg)
Both systems are incl. BMS.

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#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Mr. Geiger is offering:
(cost,price ?)

0.2 -0.225 kWh/ kg

-iff thru, LiOn A123 SYSTEM is not selffired ?

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
(cost,price ?)

0.2 -0.225 kWh/ kg

-iff thru, LiOn A123 SYSTEM is not selffired ?
I don´t have Geiger engineering pricelist...
But prices of complete battery solution (cells, case,BMS? connectors etc.) are +-arround 1 000 EUR / 1 kWh.

Most of actual batteries are based on 18650 or 21700 cells like Sony VTC6 or similar.

By the way... higher capacity per weight is not always advantage because higher capacity cells have usually lower discharge rate.

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
=this instalation was for 15 Ah A123 cells testing only...we by them circa 400 EUR,
for reinstalation (in place of 40 l tank).

=60 V, 45 Ah.
=sorry= 30 Ah !

BTW=

"But economies of scale related to the development of the electric vehicle market have led the price per kilowatt hour to plummet. In 2010, the average price per kilowatt hour was 1,037 euros whereas by 2018 it was less than 160 euros. So by 2024 it could drop below 90 euros . "

from=

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#### Speedboat100

##### Banned
What if you buy a wrecked Tesla...isn't there enough batteries for two homebuilts ?

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
It is no problem to buy cells, sold them together, install BMS, make case, add connectors etc... Or you really can buy used battery from Tesla (or other electric car) and dismantle it. They are ways how to make it cheaper.

Depend only on what you prefer....
That is beauty of freedome to make a choice.

It is difficult to compare price of finished battery ("plug and play" solution + warranty) with homebuilt battery. I tried both options and.....
If I will be final user, than I can take risc and make it by myself.
If will be for sale than I prefer professional solution with warranty.

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
One technical info - maybe not that exciting like billions invested in VTOL projects (and all still waiting for "super high end batteries") but for me is important step forward.

Many pilots are complaining about short range of actual electric airplanes. And because net of superchargers on the airports is not existing they beleive that electric airplanes are OK for training and maybe short "jumps" between two airpots with charging infrastructure.

It is also interesting that everybody is watching info about new battery cells, but charging is in "shadow".

Well... chargers are important and I even more important is development of light charger able to be aboard of electric airplane. I have info that there is available 12 kW charger workign with 220 V and 400 V / 16 Amps and also 400 V and 32 Amps. This charger weight is only 15 kg so can be easily aboard of electric airplane. Well this is really exciting for me!

So what electric airplane needs to make long flight? Only electric socket available at the airport.
If is 220 V it will take very long time, but OK, still possible to re-charge. But if is available 400 V socket than you can re-charge with speed of 1 hour charge = 1 hour of flight. OK OK... still not fast like refueling, but this will give you real freedom.

Using data from our Phoenix....
With 20 kWh battery you can fly approx. 180 km (still with safety reserve). But lets calculate with 150 km distance at 150 km/h speed.
One hour.
You have charger on board so no need of "ground team with car transporting heavy charger". Just plug cable, start charging and in a bit over one hour (coffee and discussion brake) you continue to another airport. Easily you can make 600 km a day (3x stop) or even more.
Do you want to make soaring? Do it Takeoff to 600 m and try to catch some lifts. Do you want to "fly arround chimney" for fun (sighseeing flight in home airport area) - do it

I know... still not comparable with range of Rotax version of Phoenix (1 500 km range typical or over 2 000 km range at economical speed).

However imagine that you fly for less than 2 EUR / hour for energy
And cost for complete propulsion with 20 kWh battery will cost you about the same like new Rotax 915i - only you have "fuel practically included" in price of propulsion
Keeping some reserve in battery (no discharge to 0%) and using plane like "motorglider" will keep you battery in good condition for really long time.

So don´t waste time waiting for "super high end battery cells". You can enjoy "e-flying" already

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#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
This video has nothing to do with zero emission flying....
I just like how is done

Waiting....

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Waiting....
-I cant finde Yours video with E-PHOENIX in fly with lark singing ...?

(silent !)

PS=after 10 days of travel via FEDEX MP154120 is now installed in Bogdans E-motorglider...

today He should got a A123 26 Ah cells
(at first for tests 30stc,<17 kg, circa 110 V)

PS2=the attempt with installing TORNADO 280 motor was negative=vibrationes in light fuselage...

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#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
I am waiting for better weather

The photo from hangar is not done by me - it is from Croisiair (Pyrenees). Phoenix on photo is equipped with 100 hp Rotax

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#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
My airfield looks different

Airfield LKUO

Airfield LKVM (18 km +-west from LKUO, same day)

So actually we do more cross-country skiing instead of flying

#### henryk

##### Well-Known Member
Phoenix on
=video= little noise modulation and You got a PHOENIX/LARK !

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
I had a bit of time so I was learning how to use parallax effect on photos

#### John.Roo

##### Well-Known Member
"Parallax" using 3 layers....
Interesting to learn something new