What do you think about "e-soaring"?

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blane.c

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France is a bit "special" country.
As mentionned - they have a very high fees for 400 V 16 (32) Amps. But they have also very strong glider pilots comunity and beautifull country to fly ;)


It makes sense to design charging of e-glider "compatible" with 220 V system even is there will be charging speed limitation.
In worst case would be possible to use for re-charge small ICE generator. They are affordable with acceptable fuel consumption.

Okay, stop. I do not understand if 220v eu is the same as 220v usa. I surmise it is not, until proven otherwise. I am under the impression that eu 220v and usa 110v are similar except voltage. 220v usa has two power terminals and a neutral. Basically two 110v power legs in usa equals 220v. (different locals have 120v/240v but that is just nit picking) [I've seen 115v/230v also]. Anyway it ain't the same as eu 220v as I understand it. So grid charging system in eu may never be the same as grid charging system usa. At least not until we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Kumbaya - Wikipedia
 

BJC

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Voltage is voltage. In the USA, we have 60 cycle power. Europe has 50 cycle power. As long as the volts per hertz ratio remains close, and it does with standard European voltages, typical loads can work well on either system. Power levels will change, though.


BJC
 

blane.c

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EU is two prong plug 220v? USA is three prong plug 220v? For charging the hertz ain't going to matter much if at all?

So EU 1 leg 220v. USA 1 leg 110v + second leg 110v = 220v. It ain't the same.

For example. If you plug a 220v USA well water pump into a EU 220v supply you'll get diddly, you'll die of thirst. I.E. it ain't the same.












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John.Roo

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Okay, stop. I do not understand if 220v eu is the same as 220v usa. I surmise it is not, until proven otherwise. I am under the impression that eu 220v and usa 110v are similar except voltage. 220v usa has two power terminals and a neutral. Basically two 110v power legs in usa equals 220v. (different locals have 120v/240v but that is just nit picking) [I've seen 115v/230v also]. Anyway it ain't the same as eu 220v as I understand it. So grid charging system in eu may never be the same as grid charging system usa. At least not until we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Kumbaya - Wikipedia
In EU is typical 220 V socket designed for max. 16 Amps.
1660885177652.png
Sometimes (especially in motorhome areas) you can also see 220 V / 32 Amps socket. Would be great to have more Amps available, but this is not socket typically available on sport airfields.
1660885122610.png
It means - max. power you could theoreticaly get from 220 V / 16 A socket is 3,5 kW. However in reality you can use max. 2-2,5 kW of power.

In US you have 110 V system.
1660885456022.png
And I found following info....
(they recommend to use max. 80% of circuit braker Amps).
  • On 15 A / 110 V, we have max. allowable outlet amps of 12 A. Therefore a 110 V outlet on 15 A can provide 1,320 watts of power.
  • On 20 A / 110 V, we have max. allowable outlet amps of 16 A. Therefore a 110 V outlet on 15 A can provide 1,760 watts of power.
  • On 30 A / 110 V, we have max. allowable outlet amps of 24 A. Therefore a 110 V outlet on 15 A can provide 2,640 watts of power.
So it depends on circuit braker used in typical US installation available on airfields.
 

blane.c

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110v USA is half of a 220v service. It is 220v delivered to the meter and to the breaker box. At the breaker box you have a choice of 220v or 110v. The 220v is not the same as EU 220v as I understand it. As you eluded 220v EU and 110v USA are the same except voltage. You can wire a 3 phase motor with USA 220v one wire to each of two legs of the three available on the motor, then get the motor spinning (some people just use their foot and push the pulley a ways) and the three phase motor will run on the two legs albeit reduced power (1/3 less + additional losses) weird thing is the third leg of the motor will generate power but at about 160v (you can measure it).
 
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OK so the European system (including UK as we harmonised a few years ago) is nominal 230VAC 50Hz which is phase to neutral. In Europe neutral is tied to ground (earth) in the UK we use a defined live & Neutral and polarity stays the same, only the live is fused. In Europe they use double pole switching & polarity is not defined.
All 230VAC feeds are derived from 3 phase. Phase to phase gives 400VAC, 3 phases 120 Deg apart. Domestic feeds are 60, 80 or 100Amp single phase feeds in the UK. In Europe especially in new housing a lot of properties are getting 3 phase, there is no gas for most housing roll outs, in a bid to reduce CO2 emissions.
Derivation of the 400VAC 3 phase supply is direct from an 11kV ring which runs in the local neighbourhood.

For car charging houses typically have a 32Amp supply single phase (7.4kW) although some cars can do 3 phase charging using either 16A (11kW) or 32A (22kW) although this is unusual. Car charging is done through wall pointed charge points which deal with issues around earthng as well as giving WiFi type management.
The blue plug above is a "Commando" or IEC 60309. They are colour coded by volts. Blue is <250VAC Red is <500VAC
They come in 16, 32, 63, 125Amps and bigger.
The plug and socket below is a Schuko which as said is rated up to 16A but more generally used for 10-12Amps.
 

John.Roo

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OK so the European system (including UK as we harmonised a few years ago) is nominal 230VAC 50Hz which is phase to neutral. In Europe neutral is tied to ground (earth) in the UK we use a defined live & Neutral and polarity stays the same, only the live is fused. In Europe they use double pole switching & polarity is not defined.
All 230VAC feeds are derived from 3 phase. Phase to phase gives 400VAC, 3 phases 120 Deg apart. Domestic feeds are 60, 80 or 100Amp single phase feeds in the UK. In Europe especially in new housing a lot of properties are getting 3 phase, there is no gas for most housing roll outs, in a bid to reduce CO2 emissions.
Derivation of the 400VAC 3 phase supply is direct from an 11kV ring which runs in the local neighbourhood.

For car charging houses typically have a 32Amp supply single phase (7.4kW) although some cars can do 3 phase charging using either 16A (11kW) or 32A (22kW) although this is unusual. Car charging is done through wall pointed charge points which deal with issues around earthng as well as giving WiFi type management.
The blue plug above is a "Commando" or IEC 60309. They are colour coded by volts. Blue is <250VAC Red is <500VAC
They come in 16, 32, 63, 125Amps and bigger.
The plug and socket below is a Schuko which as said is rated up to 16A but more generally used for 10-12Amps.
Please what is typical power available on UK sport airfields?
Also 220 V and 16 (10-12) Amps?
 

blane.c

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So will a EU charging system work in the USA and visa versa? Or do you need different charging systems when traveling intercontinental with your E-glider?

Perhaps it is best just to own your own solar panels affixed to the glider, then you can safely charge wherever you travel?
 

blane.c

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"How to Design Your Own Aircraft" - not bad video for Sunday morning ;)

For such a float plane I would envision a third engine. It would be possible (designed correctly) to two engine off a remote lake with a three engine craft however it is unlikely that one could one engine off a remote lake with a two engine craft. Having three engined a four engine aircraft numerous times from remote locations I can say it really beats hanging out with the bugs waiting for maintenance. It is far better to take the stricken craft to the maintenance facility. Sadly however without passengers and unnecessary gear.

Sometimes someone needs to go get help or at least get to an altitude where communication is possible even if returning to land so as not to abandon others.

Multi engine is a different mindset than single engine, and twins ... well really what is the point?
 
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John.Roo

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So will a EU charging system work in the USA and visa versa? Or do you need different charging systems when traveling intercontinental with your E-glider?

Perhaps it is best just to own your own solar panels affixed to the glider, then you can safely charge wherever you travel?
Honestly....I don´t think you can use same charger 🤔
Complete propulsion system can be same for all continents, however charger must be designed according to local electric standards.

Solar panels on the glider wings are definitelly future - only would be nice to have a bit better efficiency.... ;)
 

John.Roo

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For such a float plane I would envision a third engine. It would be possible (designed correctly) to two engine off a remote lake with a three engine craft however it is unlikely that one could one engine off a remote lake with a two engine craft. Having three engined a four engine aircraft numerous times from remote locations I can say it really beats hanging out with the bugs waiting for maintenance. It is far better to take the stricken craft to the maintenance facility. Sadly however without passengers and unnecessary gear.

Sometimes someone needs to go get help or at least get to an altitude where communication is possible even if returning to land so as not to abandon others.

Multi engine is a different mindset than single engine, and twins ... well really what is the point?
Well... I am not water or amphibian airplane expert...
And I personally prefer single motor (engine) configuration.
In case you would like to have more motors it means more also more controllers and... I would probably prefer also separated battery systems for each motor and controller. All this = more complications and.... (our worst "enemy") weight.

By the way...
Legendary Burt Rutan SkiGull has idea to use 3 motors (2x electric and one ICE).


1661152897367.png

2022-08-22 09 23 27.jpg
 

John.Roo

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Hmmm.... also interesting way 🤔 (for larger airplanes)
"The firm’s “nanoelectrofuel,” a motor-oil consistency liquid, would refuel a vehicle with a special four-point nozzle. The process would allow users to be on the road or in the air in a few minutes, rather than a few hours as with batteries. Like a battery, the liquid comes with a positive and negative component – two liquids – an anolyte and a catholyte instead of a more solid anode and cathode. The system requires four tanks – one each for incoming positive and negative liquids and one each for spent liquids that return to the supply source for recycling."
 

addaon

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Honestly....I don´t think you can use same charger 🤔
Complete propulsion system can be same for all continents, however charger must be designed according to local electric standards.

There's a level of magical thinking here that's a bit off-putting.

A charger is conceptually three stages.

The first stage rectifies the input AC to DC. Traditionally this is just done with bridge diodes, but these days this stage is also responsible for PFC (power factor correction) so fancier approaches are used. It's pretty easy to get 155 V - 340.V DC here from 110 V - 240 V AC, with a single design working for both three-phase and single-phase power. Design to your worst case PFC requirement -- if there is one in any country you're plugging in to.

The second stage is a buck (for battery voltages in the SELV range) or boost (for 400V and 800V class batteries), or potentially a boost-buck (but you don't see many batteries between these ranges) that gives you an intermediate DC voltage convenient for the battery. DC-DC converters with an input voltage range of a factor of two are trivial, and there's absolutely no reason you'd end up with different DC-DC converters for different voltages here.

The third stage (which is often folded into the second) is your CV/CC charging logic, which is basically just a DC-DC converter running with input from your second-stage output DC bus and output to the batteries, just with slightly fancier control logic. This stage contains current-limiting logic to charge the battery correctly; the current is also limited here to keep the input current within bounds, and this limit will change depending on the limits of the circuit you're plugged in to, but that's just a matter of detecting the circuit type somehow (often by user input!) and doing a software limit.

If you think of any computer power supply you've seen in the past 15 years or so, there's a reason they're "universal" and don't require a physical switch from 115V to 230V -- the physical architecture of these converters makes it almost trivial to deal with a moderate range of input voltages. Current limiting is a software feature (with hardware safety backup). The only real "trickiness" is dealing with both three-phase and single-phase input, and while this does require a bit of extra design work (and some components oversized for three-phase / inactive for single-phase), it's really not a big deal.

Alternately, look at electric car onboard chargers, which solve this every day.
 

John.Roo

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"There's a level of magical thinking here that's a bit off-putting." :D
You are rigth Addaon...

Thanks again 👍
That is really interesting.
When I ordered first charger in 2010 (charger for battery with 144 V nominal) it was strictly requested to use 3 phase plug (400 V) and then is was "divided" into 3x 220 V. Really complicated system. At that time the producer recommended to use BMS in charger etc...

Next charger has been strictly for 400 V 16 (32) Amps (spec. from producer) - and at that time were BMS systems part of battery in airplane.
Possibilities are improving a lot.

So it means that actually could be possible to make "universal charger".

I am thinking to re-built "old" electra to version with new propulsion system.
Actual stage of technology allows really interesting solutions 🤗
 

addaon

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Universal input chargers are very possible. Universal output, or even wide-range output, is somewhat harder, since there’s a significant amount of collaboration between the charger and the BMS (unless the charger bypasses the BMS which is a whole ‘nother can of worms). But for an onboard charger that’s okay.
 
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