# What could be done to reinvent the Affordaplane to a more homogeneous project?

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#### Aerowerx

##### Well-Known Member
Yeah, I imagine the sunny tropic breeze off Lake Superior keeps Tim in Thunder Bay pretty warm all year.
(Wish we had a ROFL emoji)

When I was a child we went 'car/tent camping', crossed over the border at the Soo locks and stayed one night in Canada, right along Lake Superior. When we woke up in the morning there was ice in our water. And this was in June!

And this is why I would like to keep my feet inside the cockpit, thank you very much! I'm only 66, and not ready to give up on (censored).

#### FritzW

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Someone on this group needs to build an AP so the rest of us can live vicariously through their build log. Nothing fancy, built PtP if they're not comfortable tweaking a few things to save a few pounds. (PtP except for gusset 'F' that I'd argue is backasswards and really should be fixed)

I'd do it but I've got too many buns in the oven already and I'm out of room. I've got all the CAD files if someone wanted to have parts cnc'd at their local shop.

#### Tiger Tim

##### Well-Known Member
Someone on this group needs to build an AP so the rest of us can live vicariously through their build log.
I want to build some variety of Flying Flea for the same reason but I haven’t convinced myself that’s a good enough excuse to start yet.

#### Aerowerx

##### Well-Known Member
Ok, here's a question for all you AP wannabes!

The plans give this type of construction as an alternative for foam ribs. The plans are a bit unclear as to whether both the top and bottom are covered with fabric when using this method.

But note the airfoil curve. It is not the same as the foam rib airfoil shown in the plans. Wouldn't this be a problem? I would think that the stall characteristics, among other things, would be different. If you wanted this type of wing construction, why not make the thickest part of the airfoil at 25% chord as in the foam ribs? I think it could still be done.

I also recall seeing one AP builder that used aluminum sheet ribs. I would prefer that myself over both foam and aluminum tube ribs.

#### FritzW

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
According to Appendix 2 of part 103 what you can count towards your "lift factor" matters if it's a single surface or not. IMHO the AP would fly like a walmart bag if it had a single surface wing.

There are lots of ways to make the ribs, pick the one that works for you.

In reality, anything that looked like a pretty good airfoil would work just fine.

#### FritzW

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
I want to build some variety of Flying Flea for the same reason but I haven’t convinced myself that’s a good enough excuse to start yet.
A pretty humble night on the town is $100. If you took that same$100 and bought some wood and glue and put some flea ribs together you'd have more fun. ...and, you could prove out the idea of putting ailerons on the rear wing

#### plncraze

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Read what FritzW said and then price spf at the box store. There are wood working stores with T88 or you can get Weldwood. If you can grade wood and find decent glue you are on your way!

#### FritzW

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
The VP in my avatar started with a 2' square piece of 3/4" exterior ply for the firewall, ...it was all I could afford after I bought the plans. It only took about 30 minutes to cut out but it involved pencils, rulers and sawdust and it got the ball rolling.

You'll never finish if you don't start...

#### Speedboat100

##### Well-Known Member
For the fuselage it’s by far easier to find 2x2 and 2x1” tubing then 2x8 or so.

Of course, you might be able to discard hose additional wires going from the wingstrutts to the fuselage, but the whole bird would require a different build up.

The 2x2, 2x1 and 2x4” tubing assembly is just ok, in my eyes.

My feet are going to remain outside the fuselage, if it’s going to be the Ranger, Piojo or this modified Affordaplane.

Those concepts are all hot candidates for my needs.

My feet are going to remain outside the fuselage.

And my powerplant is going to be a v industrial engine.

Yes I understand that the entering of the craft is easy when you have really simple bar to place your seat on.

If you have semi enclosed cockpit you have to stretch more....and possibly place handles on the roofsides (of the cockpit) or underside of the wing to lift yourself into the plane with some aerodynamical shape for better efficiency and normal flight caracteristics.

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#### erkki67

##### Well-Known Member
As as soon as we are home, I’m going to source the materials, metric sure.

We will see what the cost estimation will be.

#### Aerowerx

##### Well-Known Member
Interesting variation on rib building with aluminum tubing.

#### FritzW

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
The Airdrome video has some detail on coping the rib ends in a jig.

#### erkki67

##### Well-Known Member
I like the way the ribs are built for the Dream Classic. I could very well imagine a wing built that way for the Fritz AP.

#### Tiger Tim

##### Well-Known Member
You'll never finish if you don't start...
Fix mold in garage, finish building work table, then airplane. In that order. I also have a BMW in the shop that needs a new front crossmember, a Model T that needs some bushings, and a dune buggy that needs everything. Still, I can sneak in a little plane work.

#### FritzW

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
It's like having kids, if you wait until your ready you'll never have any <lol>

#### erkki67

##### Well-Known Member
With the idea to bend the airfoil out of aluminium tubing let’s emerge the Affordaplane into a real Airplane look, in combination with the fuselage of Fritz.

How the tail-volume looks like, is of secondary nature, as long as the tubing length and dimensions remain the same.

My favorite is the J3, PA18 and Pietenpol tailgroup.

The suspension of the MLG is another feature that is important, sure, a bit more weight, but an increased landing and take off options raises.

#### Doran Jaffas

##### Well-Known Member
Ok, here's a question for all you AP wannabes!

The plans give this type of construction as an alternative for foam ribs. The plans are a bit unclear as to whether both the top and bottom are covered with fabric when using this method.

But note the airfoil curve. It is not the same as the foam rib airfoil shown in the plans. Wouldn't this be a problem? I would think that the stall characteristics, among other things, would be different. If you wanted this type of wing construction, why not make the thickest part of the airfoil at 25% chord as in the foam ribs? I think it could still be done.

I also recall seeing one AP builder that used aluminum sheet ribs. I would prefer that myself over both foam and aluminum tube ribs.
If one looks back in time...hang gliders used bent aluminum tubing for ribs in their wing envelopes. Commonly called battons. Also the venerable Hovey Wing Ding II used them as well.

#### erkki67

##### Well-Known Member
In fact Im thinking about two different wing types for the AP, the ladder type similar to the Airdrome Aeroplanes, and a full sheet Metall type.

The first would be for sure easier and faster to build.

The second would have a more precise airfoil, and be stronger as well.

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
Good observation. The less flat plate area on the aircraft the less effective the side slip will be. The slide slip when done correctly exposes the maximum mass of the airplane to the ground track creating a maximum rate of decent while minimizing airspeed. Not done correctly it can lead to a stall spin at low altitude. That is why many CFI's in today's modern tech world do not teach them.
In older and even some newer homebuilts without flaps ( mostly designed for low speed and short fields ) the slip is almost necessary to optimize the aircraft's utility. Even using the slip with flaps ( the the ops manual ) is often very useful.
The slip is a required maneuver for private or sport pilot in the USA.

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
The slip is a required maneuver for private or sport pilot in the USA.
Reference 61.87 (d) (14) as an example for single engine airplane or (17) for gliders.

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