# What approach speed to use floating

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#### proppastie

##### Well-Known Member
"Well that was stupid!"
Guess I should have said "Stupid Rant Mode"......yes there are reasons to do it the other way .....however I have never since 1968 needed to set the flaps more than once......and I have flown into plenty of controlled fields, and yes I can do it the other way too......Hats off the Pops .....do not think I would try that......there is a 90+ year old radio man near me that said he could do a falling leaf with a Cherokee ....he used to ferry them from Lock Haven when they were made there.

#### PiperCruisin

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
So another thing I would suggest (at altitude) is to see how much slower / higher AoA you can go by adding a little power near stall in landing configuration. I will bet you a burger (at that little joint we went to in Tehachapi) that a couple of hundred RPM will slice off another 5-7 MPH in over-the-fence approach speed from the numbers you have mentioned.

But NO... you don't suck
How do you know I don't suck. I'm starting to wonder. Maybe I'll have to Shanghai you in Tehachapi and force you to watch some touch and gos.

Maybe I should install and AOA indicator and play naval aviator. Call the ball!

#### PiperCruisin

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
How do you calculate your landing weight?
Is this a trick question? EW + PAX wt + 6*Gal Remaining + baggage = Weight

As to flap settings, I'll land with less flaps in gusty conditions or if I want to do a wheelie (aerodynamic breaking) down the runway cause it looks cool.

One notch before turning in the pattern is a little safer to assure aileron control since the outer wing will be at a lower angle of attack. Based on how high I am determines when I drop the 2nd and/or 3rd notch. I think doing the 1, 2, 3 notch pattern simply helps students have a repeatable procedure early in learning until they get used to things and can get a bit more creative without falling behind the airplane.

#### BJC

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Maybe I should install and AOA indicator and play naval aviator. Call the ball!
The Navy Flying Manual never uses the word “flair”.

BJC

#### PiperCruisin

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
The Navy Flying Manual never uses the word “flair”.

BJC
Dad used to tell the story of when he was in Navy flight training. He greased on his first landing. When they got out the instructor yelled at him, "You will land with 2 g's! TWO G's, mister". So next time around he set it up the same and the last second pushed it forward a bit and slammed it on. "How was that Lieutenant?" "I guess that will work." Never really liked Dad's landings.

#### BBerson

##### Light Plane Philosopher
Supporting Member
Maybe I should install and AOA indicator and play naval aviator. Call the ball!
Read read the book Stick and Rudder. The entire book is focused on angle of attack. He doesn’t recommend the AOA indicator. You need to just feel it in the stick and position of the horizon

#### Dan Thomas

##### Well-Known Member
You need to just feel it in the stick and position of the horizon.
And in the seat of your pants (G loading) and airspeed. Once one understands what happens to stall speed at various G loadings, one no longer fears the stall. He knows where it is. Doesn't need any AOA or reserve lift indicator.

#### TarDevil

##### Well-Known Member
Is this a trick question? EW + PAX wt + 6*Gal Remaining + baggage = Weight
No it isn't a trick question.

So, you always flight plan to have 6 gallons remaining?

#### PiperCruisin

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
No it isn't a trick question.

So, you always flight plan to have 6 gallons remaining?
6 lbs/gal * # of gallons

#### PiperCruisin

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
6 lbs/gal * # of gallons
I might add that as a general practice, I use a dip stick to measure the number of gallons in each tank before flight. I'll note it down as say 20R and 17L and switch to the right tank before start. After start, I start a countdown timer on my EFB (Avare). When it is at zero, I may or may not switch tanks ( in this case I would) and note the new fuel level and the timer starts over again. I burn about 7.5 to 8 gph. So I would cross out 20R and note 15R (subtracting 8*.5+1 to 2 extra for climb). Cherokees don't have setting for "Both" so you have to manage the fuel and helps to keep the wing balanced.

#### FinnFlyer

##### Well-Known Member
You know this whole discussion could be made moot with the installation and calibration of an AOA sensor/display.

www.flyonspeed.org

Finn

#### Dan Thomas

##### Well-Known Member
Then the question becomes, “What AoA should I fly on final, over the threshold, etc.?”

BJC
Yup. I see AoA indicators as a crutch to patch up poor learning and knowledge. Too many pilot's simply don't get the relationship of AoA to airspeed and load factors. They get into trouble doing stupid stuff like taking off and holding the airplane a foot above the runway while the speed builds, then pulling back hard to get a spectacular climb angle. They don't know how close to stalling and spinning in they come when they do that. To them, stall speed is always the same. And for those guys, the AoA indicator will buzz at them far too late to stop the foolishness and the accident. It happens far too fast.

There is no mechanical or electronic substitute for training and knowledge. Build an idiot-proof airplane, and a better grade of idiot will buy it and crash it.

#### BBerson

##### Light Plane Philosopher
Supporting Member
Too many pilot's simply don't get the relationship of AoA to airspeed and load factors
That's why Langweishe wrote the book Stick and Rudder and I keep mentioning it.

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#### PiperCruisin

##### Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
Yup. I see AoA indicators as a crutch to patch up poor learning and knowledge. Too many pilot's simply don't get the relationship of AoA to airspeed and load factors.
Gotta love all the new gadgets, but you're saying is true, IMHO. If they go for a sudden pitch up, the AOA goes from greenish to red in a heartbeat, so not much use in that case. However, if you are dragging it in on the back side of the power curve and don't like to do math, then it could be useful.

#### jedi

##### Well-Known Member
The Navy Flying Manual never uses the word “flair”.

BJC
I watched a fresh from the navy airline student back when we did training in an actual airplane. On his first flight in a non government airplane (stretch DC 8) he says to the instructor after passing DH “watch me close, I have never flaired on landing before.

I thought “THAT was cool”.

#### Dan Thomas

##### Well-Known Member
Gotta love all the new gadgets, but you're saying is true, IMHO. If they go for a sudden pitch up, the AOA goes from greenish to red in a heartbeat, so not much use in that case. However, if you are dragging it in on the back side of the power curve and don't like to do math, then it could be useful.
Which is why we taught stalls in various scenarios, not just power-off, straight-ahead stuff. Flaps in or out, power on or off, even some at full power. Departure stalls, climbing steeply and in a bank. Approach stalls, a skidding descending turn. The student soon learns about AoA. We had a couple of aerobatic instructors that showed them accelerated stalls, in snap rolls, in the Citabrias.

#### proppastie

##### Well-Known Member
Which is why we taught
how about when you forgot to remove the pitot cover or the probe is iced up/bug clogged .......I do not remember having that taught....but it was a long time ago.....the few times it happened I was lucky to have been experienced enough in the aircraft .