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daveklingler

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The BD-5's cooling problem is no different than what any other rear-engine aircraft faces. I've daydreamed about two possible solutions; one would be a Meredith-effect belly scoop, and the other would be to use the aluminum fuse itself as a heatsink by running coolant lines along the interior of the engine compartment.

I had a conversation a while back with an aerospace engineering professor who told me about a couple of aircraft that ran coolant lines up through the wings - obviously that's going to be tougher for a plane with removable wings.

Regarding the driveline, obviously that problem's been solved by a number of people. It seems like in this day and age someone should be kind enough to disseminate the solution in the form of PDF drawings or scans of the two or three drivelines that have been proven to work. Someone??? Kent, if you'll scan those blueprints, I'd be willing to put the time in to turn them into SolidWorks mechanical drawings and subsequently into PDFs.

EDIT: Kent, just noticed you have a Cozy, a Long-EZ, and a BD-5. I can see how the progression might have taken place. :)
 

lr27

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Nov 3, 2007
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Cooling through the skin would probably work better when using surfaces near wing or tail leading edge or fuselage nose. The boundary layer would be much thinner there.
 

kent Ashton

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Concord, NC
Regarding the driveline, obviously that problem's been solved by a number of people. It seems like in this day and age someone should be kind enough to disseminate the solution in the form of PDF drawings or scans of the two or three drivelines that have been proven to work. Someone??? Kent, if you'll scan those blueprints, I'd be willing to put the time in to turn them into SolidWorks mechanical drawings and subsequently into PDFs.
If "solved" means one failure per 200 hours, yeah. (I just made that number up but I bet it's not too far off) Did you know that the British will not give the BD-5 a Permit to Fly?--too many crashes. It is isn't just the drive system. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?AcType=BD5 The only way to get involved is as a jet, which is fairly reliable. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1ybyUiWuzijQiSvUooqw0g

For 50 years, people have been asking "How can I make this sexy little airplane work" https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bd5/info
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.homebuilt/ksUziXtNlkA[1-25]
http://www.bd5.com

Funny but the last website above was owned by a rabid fan of the BD-5. He defended it since the days of rec.aviation.homebuilt on dial-up internet. After 40+ years he slinked away, sold the jet he never flew, abandoned his website and closed his BD-5 yahoo group.
 

ScaleBirdsScott

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Uncasville, CT
Trying, unsuccessfully, to envision a BD-5 with a Verner.


BJC

You had to do it. You had to plant that tiny seed of wonder in my brain.

So, if one were to add a tailboom to move the empennage rearward (which by stuffing it down the lage cavity once afforded for the driveshaft isn't that outrageous) one could, in theory, develop a new wing that would let you make the BD-5 into a twin-engine bird using a pair of the lighter Verner 3 or 5 cylinder engines.

With the newly increased extra size of this bird, the landing gear situation could be resolved fairly directly and the result would be something not totally unlike a miniature F7F? Or the other various twin-engine heavy fighters?

Or put them in pusher config if that balances better.

AT this point the BD5-ness of the craft is as I mentioned before essentially using the fuselage as a cockpit, but, a fairly good looking cockpit that.
 
Last edited:

BJC

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Trying, unsuccessfully, to envision a BD-5 with a Verner.


BJC
You had to do it. You had to plant that tiny seed of wonder in my brain.

So, if one were to add a tailboom to move the empennage rearward (which by stuffing it down the lage cavity once afforded for the driveshaft isn't that outrageous) one could, in theory, develop a new wing that would let you make the BD-5 into a twin-engine bird using a pair of the lighter Verner 3 or 5 cylinder engines.

With the newly increased extra size of this bird, the landing gear situation could be resolved fairly directly and the result would be something not totally unlike a miniature F7F? Or the

Or put them in pusher config if that balances better.

AT this point the BD5-ness of the craft is as I mentioned before essentially using the fuselage as a cockpit, but, a fairly good looking cockpit that.
Well that helped. Now in my mind’s eye: an aluminum Song with a Verner 3 pusher.


BJC
 

Victor Bravo

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The BD-5 IMHO is a candidate for an electric motor at the rear of the fuselage, with a short prop extension.

Then either the magic high density battery (coming soon, invest now!) or a gas turbine/alternator combo unit buried somewhere else in the engine compartment.

The electric motor drive system would likely be immune from most of the torsional and power pulse issues that plague drive shaft - piston engine combinations.

But none of these miraculous cures would address the thrust line issue that the BD-5 is famous for.

Re-design the BD-5 concept with an 18 inch taller landing gear, and you can put the thrust line where it needs to be, and you might have a cool little airplane with fewer issues.
 

Himat

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With the availability of small turbojet and turboprop engines intended for model aircraft, going jet should be reasonable easy. Catch, the aircraft range may suffer even more than the wallet.
 

daveklingler

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Jan 22, 2013
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Albuquerque
Now, now, Kent, you might have had the same reaction had you lost your medical just as you finished restoring the aircraft you'd been dreaming of flying your whole life. I expect Juan put at least another thousand hours into his BD-5J in addition to the BD-5B I think he built. Juan had also taken a new job and moved to Germany, and didn't feel he had the time to maintain his website and mailing list any more. I wouldn't call that "slinking".

As for "solved", yes, there are people flying BD-5Bs with working drivelines. And I seem to remember that BD Micro will sell you one as well, if you buy an engine from them. And so will Alturair.
 

daveklingler

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If "solved" means one failure per 200 hours, yeah. (I just made that number up but I bet it's not too far off) Did you know that the British will not give the BD-5 a Permit to Fly?--too many crashes. It is isn't just the drive system. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?AcType=BD5 The only way to get involved is as a jet, which is fairly reliable. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1ybyUiWuzijQiSvUooqw0g
Hey, Kent, I just noticed that you'd put your own BD-5 up for sale on Barnstormers. Before you let it go, how about documenting what you can about your Kauth redrive?

It would be an invaluable service to those in the BD-5 community (I have a kit, too) who are forever wondering how to solve that problem! I'd be willing to work up Solidworks drawings if you sent me photos and measurements.
 

kent Ashton

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Juan had also taken a new job and moved to Germany, and didn't feel he had the time to maintain his website and mailing list any more. I wouldn't call that "slinking".
r.
My objection to that person is that he had an active BD-5 discussion group and people actively building the airplane. He closed the group to new posts and wouldn’t allow anybody to take it over. He let a lot of builders down.
 

kent Ashton

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Hey, Kent, I just noticed that you'd put your own BD-5 up for sale on Barnstormers. Before you let it go, how about documenting what you can about your Kauth redrive?

It would be an invaluable service to those in the BD-5 community (I have a kit, too) who are forever wondering how to solve that problem! I'd be willing to work up Solidworks drawings if you sent me photos and measurements.
Dave, Here's the problem with what you suggest: Having a drive system is only one of the many hurdles. Jim Bede's plan was for you to take your skins to one of his builder centers and drill all the skins on a jig with the help of people familiar with the airplane, it's easy to get it crooked without the jig. And for many parts, you got raw material--say, a 4130 billet--that you were expected to machine into a finished part or swap your raw material for a finished part from his builder center. Folks don't realize this until they start building, then find they don't have the machine shop, or they end up making ill-fitting sheet metal parts or find their plans are missing some chapters or they don't have some important parts. There is no one you can turn to for advice these days. Alturair sells parts but they're not cheap.

If you buy my project you will get a drive system AND the plans for it. :) However, if Bede was selling the airplane today, I doubt he would offer a prop drive system. It was not a 100% solution. Jet engines have come down in price (PBS TJ100) and IMO any BD-5 that is decently built ought to just remove the drive system and convert it to a jet. I see that Sonex has an arrangement with an outfit in Arizona to let non-jet pilots build enough jet time to get an LOA for the Subsonex jet.
 

daveklingler

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I do strongly agree with your objection. It's the only time I've ever witnessed someone shutting down a list without even asking for volunteers.
 

daveklingler

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Jan 22, 2013
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Dave, Here's the problem with what you suggest: Having a drive system is only one of the many hurdles. Jim Bede's plan was for you to take your skins to one of his builder centers and drill all the skins on a jig with the help of people familiar with the airplane, it's easy to get it crooked without the jig. And for many parts, you got raw material--say, a 4130 billet--that you were expected to machine into a finished part or swap your raw material for a finished part from his builder center. Folks don't realize this until they start building, then find they don't have the machine shop, or they end up making ill-fitting sheet metal parts or find their plans are missing some chapters or they don't have some important parts. There is no one you can turn to for advice these days. Alturair sells parts but they're not cheap.

If you buy my project you will get a drive system AND the plans for it. :) However, if Bede was selling the airplane today, I doubt he would offer a prop drive system. It was not a 100% solution. Jet engines have come down in price (PBS TJ100) and IMO any BD-5 that is decently built ought to just remove the drive system and convert it to a jet. I see that Sonex has an arrangement with an outfit in Arizona to let non-jet pilots build enough jet time to get an LOA for the Subsonex jet.

Good grief, you have plans????!!!!!


I'm not proposing that you solve all the hurdles of the BD-5. I'm only proposing that you help solve one of them. :)


While the PBS TJ100 has come down to $60,000, that's still not affordable for most people. But moreover, a BD-5B and a BD-5J are different aircraft, for different missions. There are a fair number of people out in the world (like me) who would love to have a BD-5B, and would be very grateful to have a decent drive system.


Would you be willing to scan or take photos of your plans? Could I give you a deposit and borrow them for that purpose? I wonder whether I might get permission to put them in the public domain, or use them to make a new set of drawings in SolidWorks and put them in the public domain.


I didn't realize that Gerry Kauth had died, although I knew he had retired and was no longer making drives.
 

kent Ashton

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Would you be willing to scan or take photos of your plans?

For the price of a used motorcycle, you can have the whole kit-and-kaboodle. https://www.flickr.com/photos/85325364@N02/

However, copying BD drive plans for importing into CAD is like handing out coke to teenagers on the street. My conscience won't allow. I am just trying to unload my personal stash and get clean again. :)
 

Derswede

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Jan 6, 2016
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For the price of a used motorcycle, you can have the whole kit-and-kaboodle. https://www.flickr.com/photos/85325364@N02/

However, copying BD drive plans for importing into CAD is like handing out coke to teenagers on the street. My conscience won't allow. I am just trying to unload my personal stash and get clean again. :)
Ah, so it was YOUR ad I posted. I sent the link to several folks who had claimed an interest in Bede 5's. Only landed at Concord one time, many years ago. Mostly flew out of Mooresville. We rebuilt Monocoupes up there.

Derswede
 

daveklingler

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Jan 22, 2013
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For the price of a used motorcycle, you can have the whole kit-and-kaboodle. https://www.flickr.com/photos/85325364@N02/

However, copying BD drive plans for importing into CAD is like handing out coke to teenagers on the street. My conscience won't allow. I am just trying to unload my personal stash and get clean again. :)
Were you to offer me your Cozy for the same price, I'd be on my way. :)

After looking at your Flickr photos, I wasn't able to decide exactly how far along your plane is. Am I correct in thinking that the wings are in their early stages? Is the fuse now complete? And did you do all the work yourself, or is this a second- or third-gen effort? It looks pretty far along - only another thousand hours to go. :)

The BD-5 is a notoriously difficult aircraft to build, especially without much factory support. Your objection to Juan's ignominious exit from the BD-5 world hinged on his leaving a lot of BD-5 owners and builders high and dry. Allowing someone to document your drive plans and disseminate them would be a major contribution to that community, wouldn't it? Please at least consider the idea.

You've put the seed of the idea in my mind, though. I'll go ahead and post a want-ad, and see whether someone might be willing to contribute photos.
 

daveklingler

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For the price of a used motorcycle, you can have the whole kit-and-kaboodle. https://www.flickr.com/photos/85325364@N02/

However, copying BD drive plans for importing into CAD is like handing out coke to teenagers on the street. My conscience won't allow. I am just trying to unload my personal stash and get clean again. :)
My impression is that you've been an active part of the BD-5 community up until relatively recently. If someone loses his plane or worse because he *thought* he'd gotten the drive right, but didn't, will your conscience wonder whether he might have benefited from a few minutes spent with your camera? :grin:
 

kent Ashton

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My impression is that you've been an active part of the BD-5 community up until relatively recently. If someone loses his plane or worse because he *thought* he'd gotten the drive right, but didn't, will your conscience wonder whether he might have benefited from a few minutes spent with your camera? :grin:
I admit I'm in a strange situation: I'm selling a project with a drive system but I am happy to talk naive buyers out of using it. With a good BD-5 jet engine available at $60K and a couple of outfits seemingly willing to help you install it, no one should futz around with the prop-drive system. https://minijets.org/fr/100-150/pbs-tj100/ https://www.bd-micro.com The engines are less than the cost of a Cadillac Escalade and whereas an Escalade will drop in value like yesterday's newspaper, a well-built jet BD-5 can bring a good price forever.

I notice that the Quinton Campbell-built jet formerly owned by J.J. has been sold to Aerial Productions International for military work http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=b1e5763c-db7f-4fbc-b721-29207cbcf7c6 and Bob Bishop's jets are contracted out to them, too. http://www.smart-1.us/?page_id=14 There are at least several airshow jets. http://flsmicrojet.com/fls-microjet/ There you go. A jet is worth something and worth doing. A prop-drive BD-5 is a future garage project corroding under a tarp. Anyone who has a nice BD-5 should convert it to a jet or pass it along to someone who can, as I tell my callers.

Here is a discussion I saved: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bd5/conversations/topics/21229I It amounts to this: Every time that piston engine fires, it flexes the aluminum drive shaft. Aluminum dies a little every time it is stressed and after a certain number of cycles, it fails. Sounds right to me--I'm a Poli Sci major. Failures in the drive-system airplanes have ranged from seized engines to sprag clutch failures, https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20101015X85729&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=LA to controllable props coming apart. Go to the NTSB site, query "BD-5" and read the six pages of accidents.

Here is a video of the airplane with the failed sprag clutch. It was a beautiful job but he is luck it didn't kill him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzdxxbW5oYM

If you want more info, PM me.
 
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