Volvo 5 cylinder turbo.

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dirk_D

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Is the volvo b25 worthy of note?
Thinking a turbo under the sump for a long, slender cowling.
The range rover v8 seems the benchmark, could the b25 add turbo outclass it for power to weight?
I've lifted a subaru bare block and Vw type bare block and the suby weighs a ton more, I'm not totally sold on Subaru.
What is the final say on lightness vs torque/hp?

Dead end street?
Good prospects?
 

rv6ejguy

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Subaru sohc longblock weighs under 200lbs. I suspect the Volvo is at least 50 pounds heavier. A turbo will substantially improve the power to weight ratio of any engine. You need to decide what total installed weight your design can handle first, then look at suitable engine choices. There are no commercially available PSRUs for the Volvo, lots for the Subaru.
 

MrScrith

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Finding a PSRU for it would be the big issue, power seems good (I currently own a Volvo C30 R-Design, Out of the factory engine is running 250hp)

The interesting bit is what you want more, torque or HP, if it's torque you may be able to run with a 1:1 PSRU, the max torque for the engine runs from 1500 to 5000 RPM, max HP comes in at 5000 RPM.
 

rv6ejguy

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Finding a PSRU for it would be the big issue, power seems good (I currently own a Volvo C30 R-Design, Out of the factory engine is running 250hp)

The interesting bit is what you want more, torque or HP, if it's torque you may be able to run with a 1:1 PSRU, the max torque for the engine runs from 1500 to 5000 RPM, max HP comes in at 5000 RPM.
You are only interested in hp as far as aircraft are concerned, torque is essentially meaningless for motivating vehicles. Hp is rate of work performed.
 

Jay Kempf

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You are only interested in hp as far as aircraft are concerned, torque is essentially meaningless for motivating vehicles. Hp is rate of work performed.
Been on soooooo many auto forums listening to people debate which is important Torque or HP on the Torque/HP graph. Sheesh. They are one math term from each other and come from the same exact data.

The torque on dyno charts is not like static torque just to be clear. It is a made up torque that involves a time term so it actually acts somewhat like a work curve. Very much an automotive thing. You will never find a couple aeronautical engineers arguing over this.
 

rv6ejguy

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Been on soooooo many auto forums listening to people debate which is important Torque or HP on the Torque/HP graph. Sheesh. They are one math term from each other and come from the same exact data.

The torque on dyno charts is not like static torque just to be clear. It is a made up torque that involves a time term so it actually acts somewhat like a work curve. Very much an automotive thing. You will never find a couple aeronautical engineers arguing over this.
Oh man, here we go again (every 90 days it seems).

You are right, you'll never hear engineers argue over this because they understand the concepts, most lay people don't. Area under the HP curve within the useful rev range defines how flexible and how much work a specific engine can do. Torque is merely force over a distance. HP was a concept developed by James Watt a very long time ago designed to be able to compare different engines for the amount of work they could perform and it's still in use today. HP encompasses rate of work, torque does nothing to quantify this.

When was the last time you saw the torque numbers published for a Lycoming, Rotax, Jabiru, VW, PT6, R3350 or RR Merlin? Almost never, because the engine designers know that the HP is the the important figure to compare, not torque.

Torque measured on a dyno is exactly like your arm leaning on a torque wrench, the dyno is simply a mechanism to be able to measure this on an engine with the crank turning at high speed. Torque is no more an automotive concept than aviation or locomotive one. It's universal physics.
 
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MrScrith

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Thanks for the HP vs Torque, it's been a point of confusion for me before. Between your comments here and other comments around the engine areas of this forum I think I've gotten that misconception ironed out.

Back to the original topic of the Volvo 5 cylinder engines, I'm really starting to think there are some possibilities here.
  • Both the Gas and Diesel line are very similar inline 5
  • Both Gas and Diesel use turbos (better high-altitude performance?)
    • Sounds like there is plenty of 'room' on the turbos at least on the ground (hearing people able to tune them to higher MP without replacing the turbo)
  • The power ranges from 150hp to 215hp (Diesel) or 250hp (Gas) from the factory.
  • Reliability seems to be very high (not hearing very much about engine failures, and my own seems rock solid)
    • Engine is overbuilt for the power it puts out, modders are pushing them to 450-550hp and the engine holds up
    • Gas i5 was first introduced in the 1993 Volvo 850, so these engines have been around a while and have a lot of debugging time in them.
  • Both Gas and Diesel versions are also used in Marine applications so ECUs that don't talk to other auto systems are out there
    • Also apparently used in light duty industrial and trucking applications, really helps that Volvo produces everything from cars to marine engines to semis to construction equipment.

Reading up on i5s in general (not just volvo but the i5 engine category itself) it seems like it is the half-way between a 4 and a 6, weight and power seem to sit between the two sizes. This actually gets me at times as a "That makes too much sense" kind of thing. :ponder:

This is looking very promising, once I get further along with my plans I think I'll try to pick one of these up and start playing with it on a test stand to see where it stacks up.
 
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rv6ejguy

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Thanks for the HP vs Torque, it's been a point of confusion for me before. Between your comments here and other comments around the engine areas of this forum I think I've gotten that misconception ironed out.

Back to the original topic of the Volvo 5 cylinder engines, I'm really starting to think there are some possibilities here.
  • Both the Gas and Diesel line are very similar inline 5
  • Both Gas and Diesel use turbos (better high-altitude performance?)
    • Sounds like there is plenty of 'room' on the turbos at least on the ground (hearing people able to tune them to higher MP without replacing the turbo)
  • The power ranges from 150hp to 215hp (Diesel) or 250hp (Gas) from the factory.
  • Reliability seems to be very high (not hearing very much about engine failures, and my own seems rock solid)
    • Engine is overbuilt for the power it puts out, modders are pushing them to 450-550hp and the engine holds up
    • Gas i5 was first introduced in the 1993 Volvo 850, so these engines have been around a while and have a lot of debugging time in them.
  • Both Gas and Diesel versions are also used in Marine applications so ECUs that don't talk to other auto systems are out there
    • Also apparently used in light duty industrial and trucking applications, really helps that Volvo produces everything from cars to marine engines to semis to construction equipment.

Reading up on i5s in general (not just volvo but the i5 engine category itself) it seems like it is the half-way between a 4 and a 6, weight and power seem to sit between the two sizes. This actually gets me at times as a "That makes too much sense" kind of thing. :ponder:

This is looking very promising, once I get further along with my plans I think I'll try to pick one of these up and start playing with it on a test stand to see where it stacks up.
Most Volvo engines seem pretty robust. For aviation, you'd generally want to replace the turbo with a properly matched one. The automotive application is far different. Turbine wheel size and housing a/r should usually be increased dramatically.

The big dig will be PSRU I think. If you can get that licked and get it all on a test stand with a prop, you'll see what it can do.

Any idea on the weight of the longblock?
 

MrScrith

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Volvo Introduces the New D5 Motor

According to this post, which looks suspiciously like a press release, both the Diesel and Gas i5 share block and heads (both aluminum), so both weigh in around 185 kilo (407lb). I'm not sure if this weight is just block & head or if this includes normal running gear (pumps, injectors, etc).

Also part of that post it mentions that they were originally designed to be Diesels, so they are overbuilt for Gas engines.

One other item in favor of i5s I've come across: With most i5s having the crank every 72° there is a power stroke every 144° that lasts 180°, giving a 36° overlap between the end of one power stroke and the beginning of the other, this ends up being a marked improvement over an i4 in terms of vibration with an i6 being a small improvement to that value. (from the Wikipedia page on i5 engines: Straight-five engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Interestingly it does mention that there are vibrations that come into play in higher RPMs that aren't a problem on 4 and 6 cylinder engines, which I guess is why the Volvo redlines around 6k, not very fast for small gas engines.
 

MrScrith

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D3-220 - Engine range : Volvo Penta

According to several sources the Volvo Automotive D5 (Diesel) engine is the same as the Volvo Penta D3 engine, a marine engine. The differences that I have been able to find:
  • ECU and Turbo tuned for marine performance (max RPM 4k, hp 220, running at steady RPM for 90% of life).
  • ECU is stand-alone (no integration with other automotive systems, anti-theft, entertainment, etc.)
  • Water cooled exhaust manifold
  • Heat transfer units used for engine coolant and oil

... is it just me or does that sound like a much easier conversion task than an Auto to airplane conversion?

Note that this is using the same Block and Heads as the Volvo D5 Auto engine, which weighs in at 407lb.

The ECU and Turbo sounds like they are already tuned to be better for an airplane application, the manifold and heat exchanger stuff would be thrown out as soon as it gets in the door, but that'd be no different than your standard auto to airplane conversion. So this is sounding like an option, an engine that might be readily available from the manufacturer, tuned similar to aviation needs, and trimmed of several electronic components that airplanes don't need.

One final tidbit. Marine engine usage is rated in hours (again like aviation). I've seen a couple references to Volvo Penta D3's over 1k hours and running, but haven't had a chance to search their longevity out thoroughly.
 

rv6ejguy

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It would fit the bill if you need an inline engine but it's pretty heavy. Ever looked at the BMW N52B30? 354 lbs. 258hp naturally aspirated in 2009.
 
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MrScrith

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It would fit the bill if you need an inline engine but it's pretty heavy. Ever looked at the BMW N52B30? 354 lbs. 258hp naturally aspirated in 2009.
Yah, from what I've seen "overbuilt" is one of the characteristics of this engine, modders have pushed them to 400+hp and used them as everyday runners without any noticeable strain on the engine and good reliability (the limiting factor I seem to see is actually the transmissions, all the ones that bolt to this engine start having problems over 400hp). So it's great for reliability, not so great on power to engine weight for airplane applications.

Another reliability item appears to be the variable vane turbo really not liking tooling around at minimal power, reports of boaters who are always running them at low speeds (barely over idle) seem to run into issues within 100 hours, at that speed there is carbon buildup and the turbos seize up. Going from other comments the best course sounds like swapping out the VVT for a turbo specifically tuned for the power range you want, that would reduce the torque range but likely wouldn't reduce hp that much.

On a side note though, I'm looking more at the Diesel engine as my dream is to build an airplane that can do around-the-world, having a diesel engine that can run Jet-A would make filling up at airports around the world much easier and cheaper, also diesels are generally more fuel efficient than gas, making it a bit easier to extend a flight to 2k miles when burning only 8-10gph at 150kt cruise (the numbers I'm aiming for).

This dream is a few years off at best so I'm by no means completely locked on this engine, but I like the way it looks. Though if, by the time I get to needing the engine, I'm making enough to afford a continental or lycoming diesel I'd probably take that route, for flying 2k miles of water reliability is the primary concern. Though Volvo engines in general are known for reliability, going for a purpose-built aircraft diesel engine is the safer route.
 

rv6ejguy

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I was thinking the atmo N52 rather than the turbo N54 engine. I wouldn't use OEM turbos on an aircraft anyway. In any aircraft application, you are also going to be running less than stock hp usually, not more.

I drive an M54 engine since 2002. Lovely, smooth, never touched it other than oil changes and one coolant change. I believe these are the lightest inline 6s in their class with the magnesium/ aluminum blocks.

I think the Conti diesels are starting around $70K.:shock:
 

dirk_D

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The engine blocks sure look the business, deep webs, pressure cast alloy.
g.jpggg.jpg

The crankshaft is of some concern, a nice forging but the counter weights are a bit huge.

(I am not the originating source of the images)
 

Derswede

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I've owned several Volvos, and even raced a few. A couple of guys are getting up towards 1,000 hp out of some of the Whiteblock engines. IPD is my go-to store for engine parts. Please note that the last engine I did was the old 2L 4 banger for race, but I do have a 5 cyl R engine in my garage at present. Will try to get a weight on it. Nice engine, most go 400k or so with regular timing belt changes and decent care. My current engine went toes up when I let my wife drive it. Water pump decided to die, she decided that once the steam quit, it was fine, so she drove it home (75 miles!!). Amazingly it did not seize, but the head was badly warped. Timing belt finally died a mile from the house, so valve to piston contact added insult to injury. Was considering rebuilding, but found the R engine before I got more that partway thru investigating rebuilding for high performance.

It is a heavy engine. Think you could get more out of a V-8 thinki.ng of mounting, building for HP (heck, the NASCAR boys in Mooresville, NC would be the ones to talk with if anyone knows some of those fellows,) etc.

Derswede
 
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