Uncertified ADS-B Units in Experimental Aircraft.

Discussion in 'Instruments / Avionics / Electrical System' started by proppastie, May 30, 2017.

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  1. May 30, 2017 #1

    proppastie

    proppastie

    proppastie

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    People are installing Uncertified ADS-B Units in Experimental Aircraft but there may be a problem. See attached. Of course this excerpt could be wrong.

    Many venders have two prices for one and the other of the apparently same unit so I am not sure what it all means
     

    Attached Files:

  2. May 30, 2017 #2

    TFF

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    For experimental aircraft use, the non certified versions could pass TSO tests, but they dont spend the money. What muddles all of this is the drone ADSB stuff. The drone ADSB, under 400' alt drones, does not have the ID code programed in, that the airplane sets do. Will they? Who knows. That code is assigned to all licensed aircraft no matter if the plane is non electrical or is flying ADSB. There are cheap cheap ADSB, but it is lacking full function because it is not for us. Once you turn on your ADSB, they are gathering data on you. If you start having problems with your signal, they will send you a letter to fix it.
     
  3. May 30, 2017 #3

    proppastie

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    It does not make sense, seems to say can not use non certified after 2020 what are all the Experimental Aircraft going to do?
     
  4. May 30, 2017 #4

    Hot Wings

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    My take on this is, and I could be very wrong:

    Unless the FAA sets up a data base with known good certified installations indexed by aircraft number (ICAO) there is no way they can tell if the data being fed into the system comes from a certified installation or some home brew, lashed together, FrankenSquiter. The data pulse has a very well defined format. Match that format on the right frequency and there is no way the receiving station can tell how it was generated, of if the data provided is accurate.

    As for the GPS the same situation will exist. Without a data base to check for compliance the receiving station won't be able to ascertain the accuracy of the data received - provided it has the correct format. It matters not to the transmitter if the GPS data was generated by an old DeLorme Earthmate or a modern certified WAAS receiver.
     
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  5. May 30, 2017 #5

    TFF

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    One thing, that article is 3 years old. Last year there was a ruling on non TSOed equipment that was in favor with experimentals.
     
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  6. May 30, 2017 #6

    Wanttaja

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    I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this topic. I just like the term, "FrankenSquiter." Sounds like the big neck-bolted man needs Kaopectate.

    Ron "Sed-a-give!!!?" Wanttaja
     
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  7. May 30, 2017 #7

    gtae07

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    Notice the date on that safety brief... "July/August 2014".

    The FAA has since amended its position. http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21095

    Aircraft with non-TSO'ed equipment, but for which the manufacturer has stated compliance with the performance requirements, will be legal in 2020.

    Note also that in theory, even certified aircraft don't technically have to have a TSO'ed unit. Let me explain why:

    The existing guidance for installing ADS-B equipment on certified aircraft says that the first installation of a particular combination of transponder and position source must be done by STC. Subsequent installations of the same combination may be installed as a major or minor alteration (depending on complexity, e.g. a pressurized aircraft) provided they meet certain requirements, one of which is that the equipment is TSO'ed.

    Now, as Dynon and Garmin have shown with their recent STCs for non-TSOed EFIS products, it is possible to install non-TSO equipment by designating such equipment as a "commercial part" and installing it under an approved type design (TC or STC). There's nothing that says you can't do this to install ADS-B equipment, either. The only catch would be that you'd be limited to the specific equipment and aircraft approved on the STC, and you'd have to actually get the STC.
     
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  8. May 30, 2017 #8

    BBerson

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    The issue, I think, is portable ADS-B with no N-number code.
    I think for areas that I fly where ADS-B is not mandated a portable should be sufficient.
     
  9. May 30, 2017 #9

    BJC

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    I believe that the concern with the portable units is that they can not be flight-checked as required of the fixed installations.


    BJC
     
  10. May 30, 2017 #10

    BBerson

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    Then the portable unit needs to display the moving map location and altitude so the pilot can verify the accuracy every second of use.
     
  11. May 30, 2017 #11

    TFF

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    The Mode S ID belongs with the plane; that is why it has to be permanent. To change it requires the right equipment. 52250112 is an ID I lifted of the FAA web sight. Fly with the wrong one and they come looking for you as fraud.
     
  12. May 30, 2017 #12

    BJC

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    I heard that the FAA also requires pilots to have some kind of certificate.


    BJC
     
  13. May 30, 2017 #13

    BBerson

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    I know that. That's anti safety.
    I can choose to broadcast every second of every flight to the authorities or not. Guess what my choice will be?

    It's like a chip in your car that emails the cops every time you speed and you get a bill in the mail.
     
  14. May 30, 2017 #14

    TFF

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    Answer is hand prop and 65 Mustang.
    When you have the ADSB installed you have to go fly and they take a signature of your signal; I think 40 min straight. A buddy literally landed at 39 minutes and had to redo his flight. There is some minimum altitude or fly around in class B or C for the time.
     
  15. May 30, 2017 #15

    TFF

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    This was posted on a different sight.

    Automatic Dependent Surveillance – Broadcast (ADS-B) Flight ID parameter

    May 15, 2017

    Condition: Many aircraft flying in the National Aerospace System do not have the same Flight ID parameter programmed in the transponder ADS-B system that they use when they file their flight plan. Flight ID is also known as the Call Sign for radio operations.

    Consequence: When the Flight ID does not match the flight plan, a system mismatch is identified and the FAA logs this mismatch. The mismatch creates confusion for the ATC. For most operators, the Flight ID is the tail number of the aircraft. On some aircraft equipped with Collins Proline 21 and Fusion, Garmin G3000, G5000 and Garmin G1000, this is a pilot entry field.

    Today, there is no penalty for operating with a mismatch. That may not be true in the future.

    Recommended Action: Please confirm that Flight ID utilized by the ADS-B system is the same that is utilized for the call sign used when filing a flight plan.

    Some of these corporate jets can hide their n numbers and it sounds like sloppy pilots are entering default numbers and the system knows things are not matching up.
     
  16. May 30, 2017 #16

    davidb

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    FWIW, I have ADS-B out installed on my airplane. The N number seems to be programmed into the unit and I gather that it is indeed broadcasted to ATC as well as other aircraft. I wanted it because I do intend on flying in the airspace where it will be required.

    For ADS-B in, I'm using iPad/ForeFlight/Stratus. I mainly wanted the Stratus for inflight weather and don't find the traffic info all that useful. It's not TCAS so at best it offers some situational awareness and at worst offers yet another "heads down" distraction.

    I do imagine the out data is very useful for ATC and I believe I am getting better flight following service as a result of having the equipment. With ATC knowing your exact position and altitude, they seem more willing to clear you right through busy airspace as if you were flying IFR. I don't fear being watched. I could always turn it off if I had a need to do something sneaky.
     
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  17. May 30, 2017 #17

    Dana

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    So if you don't file a flight plan....?

    Dana
     
  18. May 30, 2017 #18

    davidb

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    I just flew from Florida to California and never filed, yet had flight following the whole way. Some of it was in class B and C airspace. On the initial check-in, they would always ask for type of aircraft and destination so I guess that gets put into their computer and gets passed on to the next controller.

    Edit: for VFR, they mostly didn't care about route or altitude but will assign headings and at or above/below altitudes when transiting busy airspace.
     
  19. May 30, 2017 #19

    BBerson

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    It isn't just privacy. If the government can track every flight they can make a per mile user charge.
    I think we already have more FAA personnel than active airplanes.
     
  20. May 30, 2017 #20

    davidb

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    If the government wants more money from us they'll get it with or without ADS-B. I'd say this ADS-B thing is more of a way to keep us pesky GA pilots away from busy airports.
     

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