# UL training

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#### pictsidhe

If I can find some affordable training, I'll take it. I may even splurge for a couple of $250 spam can lessons as it will be an improvement on zero. But I won't be doing ten at that cost. Unless I find something significantly cheaper, I'll be doing most of my flight training the 'Wright' way. Though I'll cheat a bit and reading Stick and rudder six times. Sadly, the 'Wright way' is becoming normal again for ultralighters now as there just isn't any affordable training for the many cheapskates who are attracted to 103. If someone is giving 'Ultralight flying skill lessons', how would they be liable for the student unless there was some proficiency award? V.B. Should you petition the FAA for some new way to have affordable 103 training, you can count on my backing and signature as a wannabe 103er. I'm not a people person who can influence or organise, but I am a number. #### addicted2climbing ##### Well-Known Member Log Member The video clips on Skyrider's website are nice looking and all, but the FAA could absolutely bust their asses on several things IMHO. From the two working video clip[s alone: They are routinely flying at distances much closer than 500 feet from people, cars, etc. They are charging money for aircraft rental but the starboard wing strut of that Quicksilver has the word "experimental" on it in big letters. They are clearly flying over water, out of gliding distance to shore, without life jackets or water survival gear. I like flying low as much or more as everybody else here, but for their instructor to be doing some of that stuff (on camera no less) is not a good representation of a safety-first attitude. Hey Bill, I feel the same about the videos from Skyrider. If I am forced to fly with this guy by the club, I will only let him teach me in and around the pattern. With my PPL the club said I only should take 2 to 3 lessons anyhow to get familiar with their special procedures imposed by KCMA. MY dad found a guy near Phelan (not Bryan Ranch) that also gives UL instruction. Might have my dad go there. In regards to the experimental sticker on the strut. Could that be a leftover from when any 2 seat "UL trainer" had to be labeled experimental? Seems under the previous UL training rules that the UL instructor could charge money for instruction and likely airframe rental as well even if its in an experimental UL.. And yes this is not an ultralight by any means, but then again there never has been a 2 seat UL that could make 254lbs, so all 2 seat trainers were overweight. I would like more clarification on all this as it might be worth mentioning to the president of the club. Marc #### Victor Bravo ##### Well-Known Member pictsidhe, For whatever it is worth, speaking as someone who is NOT yet any sort of instructor, I must say that there are some things you can do on an emergency basis in this situation. NOTHING is a proper substitute for actual flight instruction. Everyone agrees on this. But, that being said: First, HANG AROUND ("turn up", or "hang about" for an Englishman ) at the nearest small airport. Be seen and known frequently there. MEET PEOPLE, get to know everyone, make yourself part of the scene. We all love you and appreciate your presence on HBA, but spend your free time at the airport during the day. Get to know the group or groups at the airport. At every airport that I have ever been to, there is one or more "Unofficial Board of Directors and BS Artists" groups. Find the hangar that they all sit in and talk for hours. Sit and listen to their BS stories, tolerate their old gray hair, tolerate their old dinosaur-ness, deal with their politics if that is different than yours, and become one of them. Those old guys are the ones who know how to get anything done o n the airport, they know who is looking for an excuse to fly, they know whose airplane is safe to fly in, etc. Trade airplane washing or navigation help to older pilots in return for flights with them in their airplane. Even if they are not instructors, you will learn a lot, get a good feel for the aircraft, etc. Offer to help clean up and organize people's hangars. Offer to pick up the !(#*ing broom and sweep out the cobwebs, sort through the coffee can of mixed fasteners and categorize them, drain airplane oil and clean up the spills, etc. You can get a significant amount of free flight experience without a dollar being spent. While hanging around at the local airports, you will be absolutely delighted at how often the simple act of offering to buy some old geezer lunch at an airport 40 miles away will get you a ride in their airplane to that airport and back. You will be very pleasantly surprised at just how closely that old geezer will let you hold your hands next to the second set of controls in a dual-control aircraft (ahem...ahem) when he understands you are trying to save money on flying lessons. So the$10 burger you bought grandpa gave him an excuse to go flying, and got you some free... educational observation... on the way there and back. Again this is not the same as an actual flying lesson. But rice and beans is not the same as a T-bone steak either, however it will fill your belly when you are hungry

Become a line crew member (formerly known as "line boy" before political correctness destroyed the Earth) at a local gliderport, LSA school, flight school, or hang glider operation. You can learn a lot by this alone, but the old-school way is to trade your time as a ground crew for free flight training.

Lastly, if you are not already a model airplane builder and flyer, small free flight and radio controlled models are incredibly valuable tools, and absolutely the most bang for the buck. I cannot count how many of the lessons, techniques, and "gut feel" for how airplanes fly that I developed from models has been important in my full-scale flying. All of the old model builders on this HBA group will agree. I am not kidding, little balsa and tissue rubber powered models, sheet balsa gliders, R/C airplanes... all of it is relevant. I have crashed hundreds of model airplanes, which has probably prevented me from crashing in full-size aircraft more than once.

#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
Hey Bill,

I feel the same about the videos from Skyrider. If I am forced to fly with this guy by the club, I will only let him teach me in and around the pattern. With my PPL the club said I only should take 2 to 3 lessons anyhow to get familiar with their special procedures imposed by KCMA. MY dad found a guy near Phelan (not Bryan Ranch) that also gives UL instruction. Might have my dad go there.

In regards to the experimental sticker on the strut. Could that be a leftover from when any 2 seat "UL trainer" had to be labeled experimental? Seems under the previous UL training rules that the UL instructor could charge money for instruction and likely airframe rental as well even if its in an experimental UL.. And yes this is not an ultralight by any means, but then again there never has been a 2 seat UL that could make 254lbs, so all 2 seat trainers were overweight. I would like more clarification on all this as it might be worth mentioning to the president of the club.

Marc
The place you are talking about is Black Butte airport, which is a dirt strip less than 2 miles East of Brian Ranch. Two long dirt runways parallel to each other. You can see it easily on Google Earth. My friend Paul (now in the EAA hangar next to you) knows the people there and knows who the guy is that gives lessons. However Paul told me there is some caveat to using him as an instructor. Workable solution but not a perfect solution... I will explain more in person.

Bob Comperini at Brian Ranch is a known good LSA/UL instructor. Reported to be difficult to schedule with (has another better paying job), but delivers good instruction.

The Skyrider aircraft being experimental... I have no idea how that works. There is definitely a possibility that this aircraft uses the FAA Letter of Deviation Authority, as described in these HBA threads. I have no idea. HBA participant SteveL is an UL pilot at KCMA and knows more detail about this. You have met him in my hangar I believe.

Now, as a Private Pilot I believe you do not need any FAA licensure to fly ultralights orLSA at CMA or anywhere else. Their club insurance may require membership in their club, but I do nto believe you need to take actual flight instruction from them. That may be worth looking into. You MAY be able to get away with just having a familiarization flight with someone who flies there. Look at the actual UL CLUB requirements, which are not the same as the Skyrider SCHOOL requirements. I believe those are two legally separate organizations.

#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
I tried the hang around an airport thing many years ago. It didn't go well. the first i knew that it was going badly was when the police showed up and grilled me for half an hour about what i was doing there before telling me to leave and not come back. I've not tried again, anywhere, since then and don't feel inclined to. I want a plane or a lesson or some sort of tangible reason to be at an airport now. I know not everywhere is going to be that unfriendly/paranoid, but it left a really, really bad taste in my mouth.

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
The place you are talking about is Black Butte airport, which is a dirt strip less than 2 miles East of Brian Ranch. Two long dirt runways parallel to each other. You can see it easily on Google Earth. My friend Paul (now in the EAA hangar next to you) knows the people there and knows who the guy is that gives lessons. However Paul told me there is some caveat to using him as an instructor. Workable solution but not a perfect solution... I will explain more in person.

Bob Comperini at Brian Ranch is a known good LSA/UL instructor. Reported to be difficult to schedule with (has another better paying job), but delivers good instruction.

The Skyrider aircraft being experimental... I have no idea how that works. There is definitely a possibility that this aircraft uses the FAA Letter of Deviation Authority, as described in these HBA threads. I have no idea. HBA participant SteveL is an UL pilot at KCMA and knows more detail about this. You have met him in my hangar I believe.

Now, as a Private Pilot I believe you do not need any FAA licensure to fly ultralights orLSA at CMA or anywhere else. Their club insurance may require membership in their club, but I do nto believe you need to take actual flight instruction from them. That may be worth looking into. You MAY be able to get away with just having a familiarization flight with someone who flies there. Look at the actual UL CLUB requirements, which are not the same as the Skyrider SCHOOL requirements. I believe those are two legally separate organizations.
The suggestion to take a few lessons from Skyrider is just to get some transitional type training and familiarization flights to learn areas of concern in and around KCMA. For safety sake I do want a few lessons but no way will I let the guy try and get me on the hook for a training package.. Unless for some reason I run into some issues flying the Quicksilver, but I highly doubt that will be the case. I also have the option to do my first flights at KSZP with the guy who did all the flight testing of the Zigolo for Aviad. If I go that route it would only work if I can store the zigolo flight ready for a month with him based on if he has room when the time comes.

On the flipside, I do want my dad to take a proper UL training regimen since his flying skills are a bit rusty.

#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
Send your Dad up to Bill Bardin in the Sacramento area. Despite it being a day's drive and a motel room for a couple of days, it looks as if that is still the best option for "full" UL training in CA.

Also check out the Ultralight Squadron in Perris, they may have a decent instructor there.

#### ryanjames170

##### Well-Known Member
Any ideas as for WI?

#### Chris In Marshfield

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
I believe that there is an UL group in Racine (south of Mikwaukee) that does proper UL instruction according to the guys in my local UL club. UL1 is down here in Brookfield, but the folks in UL75 (Merrill) are a bit closer to you. Very active chapter. They may be able to lend a hand. Might also check with a fellow named Don Zank a http://zanklites.com. He’s an ultralight dealer in Bloomer, south of you a bit. He has a field there and likely does some sort of instruction.

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
I tried the hang around an airport thing many years ago. It didn't go well. the first i knew that it was going badly was when the police showed up and grilled me for half an hour about what i was doing there before telling me to leave and not come back. I've not tried again, anywhere, since then and don't feel inclined to. I want a plane or a lesson or some sort of tangible reason to be at an airport now. I know not everywhere is going to be that unfriendly/paranoid, but it left a really, really bad taste in my mouth.

#### Victor Bravo

##### Well-Known Member
I tried the hang around an airport thing many years ago. It didn't go well. the first i knew that it was going badly was when the police showed up and grilled me for half an hour about what i was doing there before telling me to leave and not come back. I've not tried again, anywhere, since then and don't feel inclined to. I want a plane or a lesson or some sort of tangible reason to be at an airport now. I know not everywhere is going to be that unfriendly/paranoid, but it left a really, really bad taste in my mouth.
Wrong airport, or wrong police department, or perhaps you inadvertently had the wrong physical appearance that didn't seem to belong on the airport. Sorry that you had that experience.

I stand by the advice that I gave, but I understand that there are exceptions to any or every scenario.

So modify your approach. Find the nearest EAA chapter and start there. Do all the same stuff I mentioned in the previous post, but start by approaching the EAA chapter people, and telling them that you are interested in being a part of their chapter, the airport, and meeting the people around the airport.

If the local EAA chapter gives you anything other than a smiling red carpet welcome, me and at least ten other people on HBA will personally call them on your behalf and make sure that they roll out the red carpet.

I'm not kidding, I will make that call and so will other EAA chapter members here on HBA. Some of us take that rather seriously, because EAA chapters all over the world are hurting for members, and we all sit around crying that there aren't enough new people starting in aviation. So when somebody expresses genuine interest, we have an obligation to foster and support that interest.

#### BBerson

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Ultralighters are not always welcome at airports.

That "experimental" sticker may be another aircraft. It said the video was provided by someone.

#### ryanjames170

##### Well-Known Member
I believe that there is an UL group in Racine (south of Mikwaukee) that does proper UL instruction according to the guys in my local UL club. UL1 is down here in Brookfield, but the folks in UL75 (Merrill) are a bit closer to you. Very active chapter. They may be able to lend a hand. Might also check with a fellow named Don Zank a http://zanklites.com. He’s an ultralight dealer in Bloomer, south of you a bit. He has a field there and likely does some sort of instruction.
actually i live in rice lake now and don zank's place is only 30 min away from me or so and giving my Girl friend lives down by eau claire wi i go down that way a fair amount. thanks for the info!

##### Well-Known Member
In regards to the experimental sticker on the strut. Could that be a leftover from when any 2 seat "UL trainer" had to be labeled experimental? Seems under the previous UL training rules that the UL instructor could charge money for instruction and likely airframe rental as well even if its in an experimental UL.. And yes this is not an ultralight by any means, but then again there never has been a 2 seat UL that could make 254lbs, so all 2 seat trainers were overweight. I would like more clarification on all this as it might be worth mentioning to the president of the club.

Marc
A two place Quicksilver can't be anything except an Experimental aircraft or an Special-Light Sport Aircraft (S-LSA)

The previous rules for UL trainers did not require the plane to be a licenced Experimental aircraft. Two place UL trainers in the "old days" were considered to be actual UL aircraft even thought they were two place and heavy. The FAA gave us an exemption from the Part 103 rules as long as we followed some simple rules: belong to an organization with a training program, qualify as a UL "basic flight instructor", and the plane had to meet certain standards.

When the exemptions went away UL instructors had to qualify as a Sport Pilot Instructor in order to continue to teach. The UL trainers had to be converted to Experimental aircraft through what was called the "grandfather program" and they were allowed to be used for instruction for a short period of time. After that time expired you could no longer charge for instruction in an Experimental airplane, but had to use a S-LSA certified aircraft.

I think that's all correct.

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
A two place Quicksilver can't be anything except an Experimental aircraft or an Special-Light Sport Aircraft (S-LSA)

The previous rules for UL trainers did not require the plane to be a licenced Experimental aircraft. Two place UL trainers in the "old days" were considered to be actual UL aircraft even thought they were two place and heavy. The FAA gave us an exemption from the Part 103 rules as long as we followed some simple rules: belong to an organization with a training program, qualify as a UL "basic flight instructor", and the plane had to meet certain standards.

When the exemptions went away UL instructors had to qualify as a Sport Pilot Instructor in order to continue to teach. The UL trainers had to be converted to Experimental aircraft through what was called the "grandfather program" and they were allowed to be used for instruction for a short period of time. After that time expired you could no longer charge for instruction in an Experimental airplane, but had to use a S-LSA certified aircraft.

I think that's all correct.

Thanks for this clarification and what you wrote is what I thought. Now my question is, he is giving instruction in a Quicksilver II MXL. I know there are experimental aircraft (RV12) that can be built S-LSA but any idea of his aircraft meets that requirement. Also if he just offers a flat fee for his time with a wet aircraft and does not differentiate between his time and aircraft time does that allow him to use this aircraft if it does not meet S-LSA?

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Wrong airport, or wrong police department, or perhaps you inadvertently had the wrong physical appearance that didn't seem to belong on the airport. Sorry that you had that experience.

I stand by the advice that I gave, but I understand that there are exceptions to any or every scenario.

So modify your approach. Find the nearest EAA chapter and start there. Do all the same stuff I mentioned in the previous post, but start by approaching the EAA chapter people, and telling them that you are interested in being a part of their chapter, the airport, and meeting the people around the airport.

If the local EAA chapter gives you anything other than a smiling red carpet welcome, me and at least ten other people on HBA will personally call them on your behalf and make sure that they roll out the red carpet.

I'm not kidding, I will make that call and so will other EAA chapter members here on HBA. Some of us take that rather seriously, because EAA chapters all over the world are hurting for members, and we all sit around crying that there aren't enough new people starting in aviation. So when somebody expresses genuine interest, we have an obligation to foster and support that interest.
I'll call too.

#### Chris In Marshfield

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Log Member
actually i live in rice lake now and don zank's place is only 30 min away from me or so and giving my Girl friend lives down by eau claire wi i go down that way a fair amount. thanks for the info!
Well then you're probably in a good spot

I have a Bearhawk buddy at Rice Lake airport. Nice place. A quick jaunt from Chetek. We may have to get together next time I'm up there!

#### ryanjames170

##### Well-Known Member
That would be cool.

#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Wrong airport, or wrong police department, or perhaps you inadvertently had the wrong physical appearance that didn't seem to belong on the airport. Sorry that you had that experience.

I stand by the advice that I gave, but I understand that there are exceptions to any or every scenario.

So modify your approach. Find the nearest EAA chapter and start there. Do all the same stuff I mentioned in the previous post, but start by approaching the EAA chapter people, and telling them that you are interested in being a part of their chapter, the airport, and meeting the people around the airport.

If the local EAA chapter gives you anything other than a smiling red carpet welcome, me and at least ten other people on HBA will personally call them on your behalf and make sure that they roll out the red carpet.

I'm not kidding, I will make that call and so will other EAA chapter members here on HBA. Some of us take that rather seriously, because EAA chapters all over the world are hurting for members, and we all sit around crying that there aren't enough new people starting in aviation. So when somebody expresses genuine interest, we have an obligation to foster and support that interest.
I don't really fit in anywhere very well. Most places don't call the cops, though...
I might try an EAA, I looked for a UL chapter last year and none in this state, or an adjoining state. So vanilla it will have to be. I'm also looking into the CAP. There's a CAP squadron within a mile from where I live, so that is something I'm going to check out. Apparently they give free instruction, though there's going to be a lot of less fun stuff to go along with it. It's that valid reason to be at the airport and mingle with airheads...

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#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
My EAA chapter president is in the CAP also along with several other EAA members. And I don't fit in well either except with airplane type's. Some of that is by choice. They call the grass crosswind runway "the ultralight strip" so they fit in here.

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