UK IFR panel

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arj1

Member
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Jul 2, 2016
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16
Location
UK
Hi!

Weird question, but what could be used as a single EFIS (no other external displays) for UK permit to fly aircraft so that the procedural (not-radar) TRUE 3D instrument approach (not the +V) can be flown? Navigator is, say, GTN 750.
Hint: LPV approaches are being removed in 2 month, so that can not be a GPS approach and it puts us back to the ILS+DME world.
That means G3X touch for example, is no good - it requires a separate DME display and ADF display as well, if the missed approach procedure requires it.

Thanks!
 

pwood66889

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Feb 10, 2007
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Sopchoppy, Florida, USA
Well, from what I've seen of the GPS testing by the US DoD, the United Kingdom is astute not relying on the Yankees!
Perhaps it may be too late to follow CraigsList or eBay for used American ILS, ADF, etc. The American FAA is all-in for 5th gen, and those systems may be too far gone to pick up cheap.
Or not-so-cheap, depending on the fine print of BrExit...
Admin note = Not political. Just mentioning current realities.
Percy in NW FL, USA
 

arj1

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Jul 2, 2016
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UK
Percy, Garmin GNC-255 can be used, and also it can be DME KN-63 + ADF KR-87 remote for DME+ADF but they need to display it somewhere! And G3X touch, for example, does not support DME or ADF!
 

pwood66889

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Ouch! Are there any UK Regs against roll-your-own avionics? RaspberryPi-like?? ADF code might not be that bad, But I don's know `zactly how DME works - some kind of out-and-back, check transit time??
 

arj1

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Ouch! Are there any UK Regs against roll-your-own avionics? RaspberryPi-like?? ADF code might not be that bad, But I don's know `zactly how DME works - some kind of out-and-back, check transit time??
No, sorry, has to be certified.
The question is if there is any EFIS on the market that can be install into a non-certified aircraft that can display ILS/VOR, DME and ADF (in addition to GPS)? I mean, DME and ADF are external to the system, but is there any way to display them?
Other than installing an extra DME display? (or installing ND from Sandel, or Aspen, but then it is not fully integrated system either - that way engine info has to be managed separately etc).
 

User27

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Apr 5, 2015
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England
Do you really understand the UK rules? No nav eqpt is required for an IMC clearance. Therefore no requirement for certified eqpt for instrument approaches. If you have a certified nav radio (GTN xxx) then anything can be used to display the data, there are no rules governing what can be used. Have you looked at what Advanced Flight Systems and Garmin can provide? Why would anyone fit an ADF these days?
 

Chilton

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Jun 28, 2014
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Jersey, channel islands
Well there are still many ADF approach s in the UK as well as enroute use, And the VNAV SBAS is going away here..... Maybe ADF is not a bad idea after all. Not that I would fit one personally but if the OP wants it?
 

lear999wa

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Jul 4, 2012
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The Netherlands
No, sorry, has to be certified.
The question is if there is any EFIS on the market that can be install into a non-certified aircraft that can display ILS/VOR, DME and ADF (in addition to GPS)? I mean, DME and ADF are external to the system, but is there any way to display them?
Other than installing an extra DME display? (or installing ND from Sandel, or Aspen, but then it is not fully integrated system either - that way engine info has to be managed separately etc).
The cnx80/gns480 has a built in DME as well as being a NAV/COM/GPS. No ndb unfortunately.
 

arj1

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Do you really understand the UK rules? No nav eqpt is required for an IMC clearance. Therefore no requirement for certified eqpt for instrument approaches. If you have a certified nav radio (GTN xxx) then anything can be used to display the data, there are no rules governing what can be used. Have you looked at what Advanced Flight Systems and Garmin can provide? Why would anyone fit an ADF these days?
You need DME + ILS for a typical ILS approach, unless there is a radar guidance, in that case DME might be omitted.
Same for ADF. No GPS substitution on final approach track in the future regs and now you need this even for some existing procedures.
(I have all this in writing from the UK CAA).
 

arj1

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The cnx80/gns480 has a built in DME as well as being a NAV/COM/GPS. No ndb unfortunately.
Unfortunately, I can't find reference to it in any GNS 480 manual - there is a GPS distance and not a slant DME distance, which is explicitly required.
 

arj1

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lear999wa, sorry, where did you find it? just checked the manual again, and it says not:
"DME Distance
Distances, such as to a Localizer/DME waypoint (equivalent to Localizer DME), are based on calculated distances from GPS information."

Although, does not help anyway, as it is not an EFIS...
 

User27

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You need DME + ILS for a typical ILS approach, unless there is a radar guidance, in that case DME might be omitted.
Same for ADF. No GPS substitution on final approach track in the future regs and now you need this even for some existing procedures.
(I have all this in writing from the UK CAA).
Well, many people I know are flying illegally! Most have binned their ADFs and use GPS instead. I thought the CAA had already accepted that in practice that was the case? The last time I flew an ADF approach we were 1 mile off the centreline with all the indications were they were supposed to be, I cannot see why anyone would think they are worthwhile items of equipment. A (training) aircraft at work has had ongoing ADF problems for months. We have spent thousands changing the whole system for not much improvement. The test set says it should work fine. It receives Atlantic 252 well but doesn't work while airborne - all so some geriatric and dinosaur examiner can make some poor student sweat when he should be learning GPS approaches.
From the Permit aircraft perspective, as long as the sensor meets the ANO requirements (VOR/ILS/DME/GPS or even ADF) how the data is displayed to the pilot is up to you. The LAA has not imposed any requirements on what may be used.
 

arj1

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Jul 2, 2016
Messages
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Location
UK
From the Permit aircraft perspective, as long as the sensor meets the ANO requirements (VOR/ILS/DME/GPS or even ADF) how the data is displayed to the pilot is up to you. The LAA has not imposed any requirements on what may be used.
Right, so the question is what are the EFIS systems that can display at least DME (which can be provided by KN-63), preferrably ADF as well (KR-87) that can be installed on a permit aircraft?
 

User27

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Perhaps your question should be which EFIS can interface with a KN63 (probably most, I think it has a serial output) or a KR-87 (don't know what interfaces this has). The Becker 3500 has a digital interface so may be worth considering, although it is expensive.

G3XTouch, AFS 5000 series, Dynon Skyview and GRT Horizon all have enough inputs that can probably configured to receive and display those inputs. I've never tried to interface either so can't say for sure. I believe the KN63 does interface with a GNC255 so should work with an EFIS.
 

arj1

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Messages
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Location
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G3XTouch, AFS 5000 series, Dynon Skyview and GRT Horizon all have enough inputs that can probably configured to receive and display those inputs. I've never tried to interface either so can't say for sure.
I actually DID check and no, they do NOT support DME, none of them.
And GNC255 will allow you to use the frequency to tune DME to (so you don't have to set it up separately like you do on KN62), but a) it is not EFIS and b) it does not display DME distance, requires some display to present it on.
I'm not aware of any EFIS from the uncertified world that can display DME and/or ADF...
 

Mig29fuk

New Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2021
Messages
4
HI from UK.
I have a AvMap Ultra installed in a SSDR (Sort of Part 103. Its paired to an AvMap EngiBox for EMS on Rotax 447.
The Ultra supports the foloowing as per Manual. Certainly ADF and VOR from Jeppesen Database.
Its simulated of course but works fine. This is what the Manual says:

Automatic Direction Finder (ADF) is shown with a standard double line needle in green color. The ADF info box of the navigation POI (Airport, VOR or NDB), used to calculate distance and direction is shown in the bottom right corner. The ADF info box includes the ADF bearing, POI ID, distance (in nm, km or miles), POI name, and two frequencies. The ADF continuously displays the relative bearing from the aircraft to the selected ADF point.
Note: The ADF function on the Ultra is a digital version of the traditional ADF instrument. The Ultra calculates the ADF bearing from its GPS position and coordinates of the selected ADF destination point (from the preloaded POI database).

VOR (VHF omnidirectional range) is shown with a standard single line needle in yellow colour. The VOR indicator is complete, with course deviation indicator (CDI) and to/from flag. The VOR info box of the navigation POI used to calculate distance and direction is shown in the bottom left corner. The VOR info box displayed includes the VOR radial, POI ID, distance (in nm, km or miles), POI name, and two frequencies. Note: The VOR function on the Ultra is a digital version of the traditional VOR instrument. The course deviation indicator and TO/FROM flag are based on the selected radial, its GPS position, aircraft heading and the coordinates of the selected VOR destination point (from the preloaded POI database).

VOR navigation settings
When the Ultra is in HSI mode press the rotation knob to enter the HSI menu.
Select “VOR” to enter the VOR menu:
In the “VOR” menu you can select OBS (Omni Bearing Selector), POI, OFF. In the POI menu you can select an Airport (ARPT), VOR and NDB as your navigation point. Select OBS to set the desired course. Select OFF to disable VOR Navigation and clean the display information.

ADF navigation settings
In the “HSI” menu, select “ADF” to enter the “ADF” menu.
In the “ADF” menu you can select an Airport (ARPT), VOR and NDB as your navigation point. Select OFF to disable ADF navigation and clean the display information.
Heading bug
In the “HSI” menu, select “BUG” to setup the heading bug on the HSI. Use the rotation knob to select the bug direction and confirm by pressing the rotation knob. The bug is shown on the compass in magenta colour, both on the HSI and PFD display.

I'm very pleased with both Units. The Ultra EFIS has an independent GPS connected and supplied by Manufacturer.
Weight and Power consumption are minimal. Picture of my very minimum Panel attached!
Hope it might help a little. Manufacturer is at Ultra EFIS
Regards
GerryPanel with Labels.jpg
 
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