Two-seat WWII warbird replica candidates?

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vhhjr

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I HAVE LOOKED AT SEVERAL TANDEM CONFIGURATION WARBIRDS AND TRAINERS AND YOU HAVE TO SET THEM UP TO FLY SOLO FROM THE AFT SEAT. iF YOU DON'T THE cg GOES WAY AFT WHEN YOU PUT A PASSENGER THERE. I apologize for the allcaps, was just doing some CAD. The ME-262 would be the same although it works well at 70% scale if you have some movable ballast to use when a passenger in onboard.

I did a 50% B-25 tandem cockit back to the wing leading edge and the passenger is almost on the CG with the pilot in front.

Vince Homer
 

Blackhawk

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OK, here’s something I’ve been musing on for a while….

What would be a good candidate for a single-engine scale replica WWII warbird with two real seats?

Let’s set aside conversions of single-seat fighters to two-seaters, the usual two-seat basic or advanced trainers, and the well-known liaison aircraft.

What would be a good candidate for a full-size or reduced-scale replica *combat* aircraft of WWII?

Here are a few off the top of my head….

Commonwealth Wirraway

Yes, the Wirraway @ 75% scale would be ideal, The Wirraway was derived from the North American T-6 Texan; see below

From Wikipedia: In March 1937, the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation of Australia purchased a NA-32 (NA-16-1A), followed by a NA-33 (NA-16-2K)), including a manufacturing license. The first CAC Wirraway flew on 27 March 1939, of which 755 were built.
 

Aesquire

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There were export fighter versions with fixed gear, making a good simplified version for replicas. You'd want to remember the AT-6 is an unforgiving plane, considered a great transition to P-51 fighters, which ( unpopular view, I admit ) has a nasty stall spin accident record.

The Dauntless otoh, is a decent carrier plane, so far more forgiving for low time pilots.

I may be unduly influenced by Corky Meyer and his attitudes. Highly recommended reading...

 

Bigshu

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I HAVE LOOKED AT SEVERAL TANDEM CONFIGURATION WARBIRDS AND TRAINERS AND YOU HAVE TO SET THEM UP TO FLY SOLO FROM THE AFT SEAT. iF YOU DON'T THE cg GOES WAY AFT WHEN YOU PUT A PASSENGER THERE. I apologize for the allcaps, was just doing some CAD. The ME-262 would be the same although it works well at 70% scale if you have some movable ballast to use when a passenger in onboard.

I did a 50% B-25 tandem cockit back to the wing leading edge and the passenger is almost on the CG with the pilot in front.

Vince Homer
Does that depend on the scale? It would seem that somewhere above 80% would have a manageable CG range. I would expect any military replica is going to have issues due to the giant engines.
 

cluttonfred

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Here are two more if you want to get your feet wet.

Shavrov Sh-2
The Sh-2 is a big, heavy plane for its 100 hp engine with a 13 m (42 ft 8 in) upper wingspan 1,160 kg (2,557 lb) gross weight. At 7/8 scale with an 83 hp Verner Scarlett 5S it would still be a big plane with 11.375 m (over 37 ft) span but with 77% of the wing area and 56% of the weight at the LSA seaplane max 650 kg (1,430 lb). That would be a much improved wing and power loading over the original but still pretty close in size.

View attachment 123593

Supermarine Walrus
The Walrus is quite literally massive with a 45 ft 10 in (13.97 m) span, 7,200 lb (3,266 kg) normal gross weight, and a 750 hp Bristol Pegasus VI 9-cylinder radial. At 2/3 scale the span would be just 30 ft 6 in (9.3 m) with 44% of the wing area for just 20% of the gross weight at LSA seaplane max of 1,430 lb (650 kg). A 158 hp Scarlett 9S would actually match the power loading of the original but at such reduced wing loading a 124 hp Scarlett 7U would be plenty.

View attachment 123594

On second thought, for the Walrus I think I’d go down to 5/8 scale for a span of 28’ 7” or about 8.73 m, which would still give 39% of the original wing area but still only 20% of the gross weight. It would still be no problem to fit in staggered or tandem seating for two though you’d need some additional windows. It would probably be a good idea to delete the gun positions as well. ;-)

1647803718803.jpeg
 

Riggerrob

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On second thought, for the Walrus I think I’d go down to 5/8 scale for a span of 28’ 7” or about 8.73 m, which would still give 39% of the original wing area but still only 20% of the gross weight. It would still be no problem to fit in staggered or tandem seating for two though you’d need some additional windows. It would probably be a good idea to delete the gun positions as well. ;-)

View attachment 123629

Supermarine Walrus reminds me of the Petrel line of biplane, ultralight flying boats that are already successful.
As for the forward gunner's position, just cover it flush and install a black hatch.
After you park, you can mount 80 percent Lewis gun on the nose. Park your pre-teen child in the bow hatch and tell them to make machine gun noises while pointing at their least favorite dog species.
Hah!
Hah!
 

Riggerrob

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Does that depend on the scale? It would seem that somewhere above 80% would have a manageable CG range. I would expect any military replica is going to have issues due to the giant engines.

The sub-scale Russian Sturmovik would need the gunner to sit facing backwards for balance ... just like the original.
Did I ever tell you that my favorite seat in B-25 Mitchell bomber is the tail turret? Great visuals during take-off and landing!
 

Riggerrob

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OK, here’s something I’ve been musing on for a while….

What would be a good candidate for a single-engine scale replica WWII warbird with two real seats?

Let’s set aside conversions of single-seat fighters to two-seaters, the usual two-seat basic or advanced trainers, and the well-known liaison aircraft.

What would be a good candidate for a full-size or reduced-scale replica *combat* aircraft of WWII?

Here are a few off the top of my head….

Commonwealth Wirraway
View attachment 123571

Tachikawa Ki-36
View attachment 123576

Vickers Wellesley
View attachment 123570

Vought Kingfisher
View attachment 123577

Of course, the retractable gear ones are problematic. Any more ideas? Bonus points if you include a period photo in your post.

One advantage of the long canopy on the Kingfisher is that it allows you to slide crew seats forward and aft - for balance - but still retain the original outer mold lines. A replica Kingfisher would probably need the pilot to sit on top of the main spar, with the gunner moved forward until his feet touch the pilot's seat. As for that opaque part - in the middle of the canopy - just slide opaque panels in after you land.

This parallels some weight and balance calculations that I did for a half-scale, replica of an asymmetric, Blohm und Voss 141 when I concluded that I needed to shift the single pilot's seat aft to the main spar. Since the original had opaque panels where the pilot's head would end up, I just opted to extend the Plexiglas along the full length of the crew gondola/nacelle/pod.
I need to do a second round of weight-and-balance calculations to determine if it is possible to fit a second crew member into a half-scale replica BV.141. He would probably need to face aft for balance ... just like rear gunner in the original. The rear- seater would probably need to sit between the front and rear wing spars, so it is more of a structural challenge to make a hole in the wing's structural box.
 

Bigshu

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The sub-scale Russian Sturmovik would need the gunner to sit facing backwards for balance ... just like the original.
Did I ever tell you that my favorite seat in B-25 Mitchell bomber is the tail turret? Great visuals during take-off and landing!
That's sounds like a neat view. I think I might have to spring for a ride in some WW2 aircraft this year.
I wonder if you could just play with the engine mount to get the W/B better. None of these replicas will be using multi row radials, or V12s, so there should be some wiggle room with the engine to get the pilot in the front seat. You could even build the mount out of heavier tubes to both move the balance point and make a stronger installation. If the gear will be fixed, it's going to be mounted to the front of the spar, so use a little more beef there as well. For what it's worth, small changes in the placement of the wing carry through could help the W/B without looking too far off.
 

cluttonfred

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Supermarine Walrus reminds me of the Petrel line of biplane, ultralight flying boats that are already successful.
As for the forward gunner's position, just cover it flush and install a black hatch.
After you park, you can mount 80 percent Lewis gun on the nose. Park your pre-teen child in the bow hatch and tell them to make machine gun noises while pointing at their least favorite dog species.
Hah!
Hah!

Sounds like a plan but my sons are taller than I am and my daughter is 5’ 8”. I am fantasizing about one-upping the Fly Baby disguised as a Junkers with a dummy gunner by putting *two* dummy gunners on a reduced-scale Walrus. With the pilot hidden in the cockpit, they and the guns could be to the correct 5/8 scale, one slaved to the rudder and the other slaved to the ailerons to make them out of sync. 😈

1647806689972.jpeg

1647806755848.jpeg
 
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Riggerrob

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Nice suggestion, but you have to remember that the original Lysander was a massive beast with a 50 foot wingspan, a gross weight of 6,330 pounds and a range of 600 miles. The German Fieschler Storch was almost as big with a 46.75 foot wingspan, a gross weight of 2,920 pounds and a range of 240 miles. For comparison, the Piper L-4 Grasshopper had only a 35 foot wingspan (gross weight 1,200 pounds) and a range of only 190 miles to do the same artillery observer role.
They were all great STOL airplanes, but Lysander had a much faster cruise speed (near 200 mph.) and a range of 600 miles - even more with an external belly tank. After they got mauled over Dunkirk, Lysanders were relegated to training roles (e.g. towing target sleeves), but eventually found their niche smuggling agents (e.g. French Resistance) in and out of Nazi occupied Europe.

Pazmany, Slepcev, etc. have sold plans for Storch replicas and more PIper L-4 clones flown than we can count, but no-one has yet built a replica of a Lysander. Perhaps it is because the original Lysander was so big.
A 60 percent scale Lysander replica would still be as big as a full-sized Piper L-4 Grasshopper!
Hah!
Hah!
 

Riggerrob

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Seversky AT-12 Guardsman? Big brother of the P35...Any ideas on how to make one? :rolleyes:
View attachment 123603

Start with a roll of sheet aluminum and a bucket of rivets. Cut, bend, drill and buck rivets until it looks like an airplane.
Hah!
Hah!
You are going to need some serious metal forming skills to pound out that cowling, wing tips, etc. Fortunately, most of the fancy curves in the flying surfaces are along the trailing edges. It is comparatively simple to bend sheet aluminum rudder ribs, then cover them with fabric.
 

Bigshu

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Start with a roll of sheet aluminum and a bucket of rivets. Cut, bend, drill and buck rivets until it looks like an airplane.
Hah!
Hah!
You are going to need some serious metal forming skills to pound out that cowling, wing tips, etc. Fortunately, most of the fancy curves in the flying surfaces are along the trailing edges. It is comparatively simple to bend sheet aluminum rudder ribs, then cover them with fabric.
Yeah, lets keep the solid rivets to a minimum! I was kind of hinting that maybe somebody who engineered a P36 kit might be able to work a little magic to make a two place, slightly bigger aircraft of a similar vintage. Just a different path than multiple single seat fighters...
 
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