Twin Ford V10s anyone...anyone...

Discussion in 'Ford' started by F82man, Aug 6, 2008.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Aug 6, 2008 #1

    F82man

    F82man

    F82man

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello fellow wingnuts, I am planning on using the Ford V10 in an airplane and was wondering what you might know about the later ones with three valve heads, (2005 and later). The main reason, is to get something other than a V8 sound. It has several things going for it, aluminum heads, high power, and high torque numbers. And, there are millions of them in use, so parts should be relatively inexpensive. The question I have not been able to get answered is what about the balance shaft?? Can the right engine run backwards?? I know this is done in Boat racing with the Big Ford and Chev V8s, and the only difference is the cam and the spark timing, and the oiling system. Any Ideas?? Thanks, Don
     
  2. Aug 7, 2008 #2

    wsimpso1

    wsimpso1

    wsimpso1

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2003
    Messages:
    5,862
    Likes Received:
    3,078
    Location:
    Saline Michigan
    I was not aware that there was a balance shaft on the V10's. If there is one, it runs at twice crankshaft speed and is timed to the crankshaft.

    Cams and ignition systems and oil pumps can be worked out for reversed rotation.

    The biggest issue with reversing engine rotation on these guys is reversing any tensioners on chains driving the cam shafts and balance shafts. If tensioners are used , the tensioner takes the slack out of the chain on the non-driven side of the arrangement - reversing the rotation would require reversing the tensioner side as well. In pushrod engines, there are no long chain runs to worry over, and some are gear driven anyway.

    Billski
     
  3. Aug 7, 2008 #3

    rpellicciotti

    rpellicciotti

    rpellicciotti

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
  4. Aug 7, 2008 #4

    jumpinjan

    jumpinjan

    jumpinjan

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2004
    Messages:
    313
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Dayton OH
    A V10 doesn't need to eliminate any secondary moments (like a four cylinder), so no balance shafts are necessary.
     
  5. Aug 8, 2008 #5

    LGM

    LGM

    LGM

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Off the subject but ................


    Just a warning to those who follow the link a couple of messages up to geareddrives.com. When you hit the main page it attemps to run a remote control application of some sort along with at least 5 different attempts to load the js.loader.agent and js.Psyme virus. I've sent an e-mail to the original poster along with the contact address on the website. Anyone who's followed the link that didn't get a virus or trojan warning, might want to scan with a different product.

    Good luck...
     
  6. Aug 11, 2008 #6

    rpellicciotti

    rpellicciotti

    rpellicciotti

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2005
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    I contacted Geareddrives and told them about the problem with their website. They wrote me back and said that their hosting company had confirmed that someone had hijacked their website. It has been corrected now. The first time I visited their site, it seemed ok. I visited it a couple of days later and got the virus warning as well. Thanks for catching this and I know the folks at geareddrives appreciates it as well. Here's the text of the message that I got from them:
    -----------------------------------------
    Hello, thanks to your contacting me quickly, I was able to get our hosting agent, globat.com to check all of my html files, and there indeed was a problem. They tell me that someone hacked into our server, so I have had to take some additional security precautions once they cleaned up my website.
    All should be well now.
    Thanks again. By the way, we appreciate your support of our Geared Drive.

    Phyllis Ridings-Murawski


    Bud Warren
    Geared Drives
    Cell (936) 827-5126
    Bud@GearedDrives.com
    http://www.GearedDrives.com
    --------------------------------------------
     
  7. Aug 11, 2008 #7

    Jman

    Jman

    Jman

    Site Developer

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,881
    Likes Received:
    58
    Location:
    Pacific NW, USA!
    Good catch...thanks guys.
     
  8. Aug 18, 2008 #8

    F82man

    F82man

    F82man

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the "geared drives" info link. when the website came back, I called, and they said the "reverse box", was for a chevy v8, but they could adapt one for a ford. So you have saved my bacon!! Thanks Rick, this will take alot of stress off of me for now. I am also looking into the falconer v12 as they have put alot of them in boats, and they usually need one of them to turn backwards. This is the preferred path, as it has a great v12 sound, and puts out 640 hp out of the box. and if push comes to shove, the falconer is also a chevy bolt pattern. Besides, I have a year or so to get the plug made before I need to start worring about power plants. Thanks again, Don Lowe.
     
  9. Feb 1, 2009 #9

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    South New Jersey
    while i would not agree with using a triton block, i would highly advise against using a Falconer V-12. There have been alot of reliability reports and issues with he falconer engine, that is part of the reason the Thunder Mustang went under.

    Also you can null the use of a counter balancing shaft in the V-10 by using a odd firing order to balance the engine.
     
  10. Feb 6, 2009 #10

    F82man

    F82man

    F82man

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pepsi71ocean, I have mostly eliminated the ford V-10 as a useable powerplant in my project, due to the complexity of the timing components. As for the falconer, I have heard from some racing friends that there is a problem with cracking mid block due to uneven coolant transfer, and this is causing me to also shy away from the V-12 design, (as well as the 65 grand per engine, OUCH!!). I am familiar with the Chevy Big Block, but the sound is not quite right for a twin. (It reminds me of being at the drag races). This leaves the Viper V-10 as an alternative. I have studied the Viper power charts, engine construction, and feasability for my project, and still have plenty of time to come up with a solution. I will need the right engine to turn to the left, I found this is very doable with the Viper. A shop in Florida makes Billet, hardened crankshafts for a stronger bottom end for racing applications. Since I am still working on the "right" fuselage plug, I have plenty of time to locate what will work best. I am not a mechanical engineer so all the info you present is greatly appreciated. And with everyone's help I can narrow down the choices, for the best overall powerplant. Keep the info coming. Thanks, Don
     
  11. Feb 6, 2009 #11

    F82man

    F82man

    F82man

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Also, I feel it would be easier to use the same PSRU on both sides and turn the right engine backwards, than to have a "mix-n-match" types of PSRU's, with the engines turning the same direction. Don
     
  12. Feb 6, 2009 #12

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Midniteoyl

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    500
    Location:
    Indiana
    Just remember the cam bearing issue with the Viper V-10 (as in no bearings). You can get them redone using AMC bearings, however.
     
  13. Feb 9, 2009 #13

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    South New Jersey
    that is because falconer used two V-6 engine blocks which were bolted to a common crank.

    Your biggest enemy is going to be rpm vs longevity.
     
  14. Feb 15, 2009 #14

    F82man

    F82man

    F82man

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pepsi71ocean, you bring up a very good point. I have done alot of thinking about this subject. I heard that the English requirements for the "Merlin" in the mustang be a life of 200 hours before any "major" maintenance needed to be done, and when Packard started building the Merlin, they changed the blower drive, and the main and rod bearings, and a few other things to get the design to make it to 400 hours, as this was the AAF requirements at the time. My goal, is for the engines to be capable of 700 hours of flight time by turning slower, and having a slower cruise speed. I am not interested in extended top speed flight, as this eats up gas, engine parts, etc. Also, I plan to have a "spare" engine for each side on hand when needed. When doing a flyby at airshows, just the sight of the aircraft will turn heads, so high speed low altitude aerobatics is really not necessary in my opinion. (I know, this makes me sound like an "old Fuddy Duddy" as my kids would say). Don
     
  15. Mar 1, 2009 #15

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    South New Jersey
    you don't need to run one engine in reverse, just use a gear housing of the same dimensions, however use a planetary gear set on the one to force the propellers output shaft to run backwards, this can be done by fixing the planets on the gear shaft.

    As for the Merlin rebuild time, i'm working on my own engine design so i don't need to worry about such issues. But im considering dropping the V-10 for a V-12 design, it would run more balanced and smoother as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2009
  16. Mar 1, 2009 #16

    PTAirco

    PTAirco

    PTAirco

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    1,000
    Location:
    Corona CA
    When you say, "working on your own engine design" do you mean, an engine built more or less from scratch? Or a conversion?
     
  17. Mar 2, 2009 #17

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    South New Jersey
    The current engine design is from scratch. The plan will be to acquire milling machines and mill out the block from castings. it is a very modular engine and takes most of its design from that of the Merlin engine. However, to reach where i am now i started 2 years ago with modifying a V-8, to then modifying V-10 engines (like the Ford and Dodge engines) however to suit longevity and reliability i ended up designing a custom V-10 engine design, After a serious long thought process i deiced to go with a 1:1 P-51D replica, so Ive gone about building a V-12 design, which means starting from scratch again. I figured if im going to take the time to build and engine, i might as well build a full size airplane for it and make it the real deal. Even have a name for the engine.

    The engine is more or less scaled copy of the Merlin, except updated and it has more safety features added, and its beefed up alot.
     
  18. Mar 2, 2009 #18

    PTAirco

    PTAirco

    PTAirco

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2003
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes Received:
    1,000
    Location:
    Corona CA
    That is one ambitious project! I always wanted to build an engine from scratch, but nothing as complex as that. I assume you'll be able to use a lot of of automotive parts, such as valves etc. But how do you propose to make the crank?

    I stopped telling people about my engine design ambitions years ago, since they always think I am some kind of crackpot and if I hadn't listened to all those people telling my "can't be done", I'd have something working by now.

    I could easily hijack this column with questions, maybe I'll send a PM.
     
  19. Mar 2, 2009 #19

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    pepsi71ocean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    191
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    South New Jersey
    Your not the only one who has been called crack pot, lol. most of the family have wrote me off because i want to build some monstrous engine and a full sized airplane, lol. As for engine design ive gone through a ton of notebooks and paper drawings.

    Unfortunately, in my advance to help modernize the engine for safety ive added features that would make valves and push rods unnecessary or unsafe. Ive build a circlip into the valve design so if a valve stem breaks the engine won't eat a valve and cause damage. Something like this would make automotive valves dangerout to use.

    As for the crank i figured that i would either see if i could have one made and if not, ide get a block of iron and mill one my self. The have it shipped out and nitridizated for strength. The rods would be shot peeined for durability, and also enlarged at what are considered the stress points. The problem is there is a big difference when shifting designs from a V-10 to a V-12. With a 12 you can fork and rod the connecting rods which helps save room, conversely this also means that the tollerances must be better because your firing two cylingers to one turning point, (ratherwise its normally 1 cylinder per turning point). Feel free to send me a PM.
     
  20. Mar 4, 2009 #20

    F82man

    F82man

    F82man

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi pepsi71ocean, If you want to make your P-51 out of composites, there is a possibility the P-51 G with the Turbine engine, is still for sale. Maybe you could buy/obtain the molds, and make your own. I saw a white "fiberglass" P-51 in Kissimmee Fla, several years ago, that was going to a museum for display. Maybe they would have the molds available, (unlike mine), this would give you a head start with your project. Also, you could incorporate your 60 degree V 12 idea into production, and, i'm sure you could sell it, for less than a "Merlin", and people would gladly buy one. Don
     

Share This Page

arrow_white