Tube construction: Alternatives to conventional welding

Discussion in 'Tube and Fabric' started by Vigilant1, Mar 28, 2017.

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  1. Oct 28, 2019 #161

    Winginitt

    Winginitt

    Winginitt

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    Deleted duplicate post.....
     

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  2. Oct 28, 2019 #162

    Winginitt

    Winginitt

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    "litespeed[ can not see the big problem with the brackets. Sure some can be complex but most are not and it all depends on the design.

    Winginitt: Agree, and you will see that below.

    litespeed: The brackets/gussets will be either bolted but mainly riveted with pull rivets and they are simple, reliable, light and cheap
    I have lots of experience in sheet metal and brackets/gussets and they are not hard or slow to make.

    Winginitt: Agree for the most part, but sometimes a little extra work creates a better bracket for certain situations.

    litespeed: Just use a small 3-1 bender/brake on a bench, it shears, bends and rolls. Simply to use and fast.If you can cut some light cardboard, use a ruler, protractor etc you can easily make a gusset template.

    Winginitt: Agree, made many brackets that way.

    litespeed: Get it wrong? adjust or remake for a few cents. It is not hard nor difficult and far less so than a welded bracket.

    Winginitt: Agree, but the welded fuselage for the most part does not require brackets to hold the components together.

    litespeed: I could easily make all 80 brackets/gussets in less than a day.

    Winginitt: Probably a little optimistic unless all brackets are simple triangles. If you try to keep brackets light they will require some contouring and special attention. Also, the brackets shouldn't all be made all at once, but rather as a progression as the build goes along. Sometimes you have to "adjust" brackets slightly to make things work.

    litespeed:No need for cnc or anything like that when doing a single aircraft. Adjust them as needed or quickly make another. If you are making a homebuilt then a small investment in tools and a compressor driven rivet gun is cheap and easy to use for other things.

    Winginitt: The suggestion for a CNC water jet was the OPs idea, not mine....which suggests that he may not have a shear/brake/bandsaw or the space for them.

    litespeed: Wingitt,
    All your criticism of above also relates exactly to a steel frames fuselage. Bends still have to be correct, tubes have to be very accurate etc. Yes welded can be great but you seem to be making up anything to **** tube and gusset and excuse steel of similar problems.

    Winginitt: There is positivity, negativity, and objectivity. I think of my posts as being objective since they merely point out actual problems that any builder needs to consider. Objectively pointing out the negative factors of a choice may be viewed as negativity, but its still real factors that must be considered. If I don't mention these considerations does that mean they won't exist or that a builder shouln't be concerned about them ? See Flywheel 1935 comment below.

    Flywheel 1935: Hi WINGINITT, Ive had to make close to 250 gussets for the LMA 'Kit" I'm building, as per you observation above, As they went missing when I acquired the assets of the UK importer.

    Be aware that they are bonded, with HYSOL, the rivets 'only' help in peel & sheer !!! I say kit, but due to poor design we are redesigning to make better use of UK supplied materials.
    Its fabric covered, using stringers over the top of the gussets to hide them.

    Winginitt:
    Thanks for the comment Flywheel. It demonstrates that the things I said are real concerns. I assume you are using wood . I like the fact that you pointed out that you are using stringers to hide the gussets. See folks, these are real things that a builder needs to consider and I thank Flywheel for providing honest experience about his "kit".

    litespeed: Each to his own, I can weld and do T & G and composite and wood. My choice is not just about what I am comfortable with, but what works.

    Winginitt: I have never said they don't work, only objectively pointed out some things that need consideration. One thing you fail to point out is that the welded joint will normally be at least as strong and will be lighter ......multiplied by (?) number of joints. The welded joint is also more conducive to joining clusters than brackets. It doesn't matter whether its aluminum or steel, it still can be welded, and even simple lite webs added where you need/want them. Often with brackets there is not a convenient place to anchor a bracket to support controls ,cables,levers, etc. There are benefits to both methods and negatives to both methods.


    Winginitt:
    Now for the point I promised above.....that there are positives to building with brackets. As I pointed out using the pictures above, when using box tubing double bracketing is needed at each juncture. Lots more brackets, lots more weight. When I sat down this morning, my intended purpose was to post a picture of a neat little airplane picture in an article by Budd Davidson in the EAA Publication Nov 2019 Sport Aviation. Highly recommend joining and getting this magazine, and Budd is one of my favorite writters. You'll notice that this neat little airplane utilizes angle instead of box tubing. This allows brackets to be singular, and rivits to be driven. You can even make the rivits flush to help keep the sides smooth. A simple small brake can be used for small joggles to the bracket so mounting inside rather than outside is feasible. Its a really neatly done and apparently well thought out build.

    It would be nice if people would quit taking objectivity and calling it negativity. As for the Budd Davidson article, the main thrust of the article was that the most important asset a builder has is "perseverance" and the willingness to learn new things. Many people actually undertake learning to weld simply because they want to build an airplane and quicly learn they can now build almost anything. Anyway, here is a quote from Budd's article.

    Calvin Cooledge said: Nothing in the world can take the place of persistance
    Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
    Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
    Education will not. The world is full of educated direlects.
    Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.

    Budd Davis said: (Edited) No one is born with the skills to handcraft a flying machine. However, there are no required skills that are beyond the reach of every single person reading this. So, the willingness to learn combined with fierce determination is the single most important skill/trait combination required for building airplanes.

    Winginitt: My personal opinion is that anyone who chooses not to learn how to weld is doing a disservice to themselves. It opens up so many new horizons if they will just try.......
    Why do so many people want to characterize encouragement to learn something new as a negative assertion against something......its merely another "alternative" to consider.

    So here is the neat little airplane from Budd's article. I think its pretty Kool.........and not a weld in sight !

    001x.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  3. Oct 28, 2019 #163

    Winginitt

    Winginitt

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    litespeed: can absolutely be sure that if you give me two garages- one for building tube and gusset and the other for building a steel tube aircraft fuselage- The tube and gusset will win hands down for speed and construction cost. Assuming same fuselage and different materials.

    Winginitt: Yep, the tube and gusset will probably go together more quickly. It will however weigh more than the exact same material welded together. Its all about the finished product rather than just speed of assembly.

    litespeed: If I have extra hands, then the alloy process is even faster- hard for two to weld at the same time.

    Winginitt: I like to take my time and insure things fit right and are square and correct. When you have two people working independent of one another things often go wrong. Its nice to have a helping hand, but I'm a control freak.....nothing gets done without my oversight or help.

    645f5adfec502f4c27c9232e2dfe6614.jpg

    Winginitt: If its wrong, its gonna be my fault.....


    litespeed: If you add in any machine time for kitting, then its even better in favour of alloy. Machine speeds are much faster. A hand punch can do holes in alloy gussets very fast- can't do that in the thick bracket/gusset Steel. Want to drill a hole? fast in alloy and slow in steel. Cutting and notching tubes is a great deal slower in steel and will need to be accurate. Tube and gusset is fast to cut and notch and the tight fit is not a necessity.

    Winginitt: If you are going to use industrial machining for gussets, then you should also realize that tubing can be machined for precise fits and kits have already been offered for some airplanes . There are machines available which can provide exact fit mechanical parts for any airplane need. Its just that its not a feasible solution for most one off homebuilders.

    litespeed: I can also be sure it will cost a lot less in tools and consumables as well.

    Winginitt: Now really true. Right off the top you have the cost of a full sheet or two of aluminum. If you use bolts, they will need to be aircraft quality $. If you use rivits, you will most likely need several hundred of them. You'll need a tool for squeezing and one for driving.....and an air compressor. Except for the air compressor, everything you purchase is specific to using brackets for assembly. The air compressor, like the welder is a multi project tool that lasts a loooooong time. So with the welder you are out the cost of some gas, a few tungstens, and some welding rods. They will cost less than the aluminum sheets. The welder can be resold and recoup most of your investment but for some reason most people who learn to weld have a desire to retain their welders.......

    litespeed: Hands up who can cut, notch, jig, and fully weld an aligned fuselage in a week? Now can you do it without having jigs first made up? How long then? Now do all the treatments for corrosion and such.

    Winginitt: Since you go by the name "litespeed" I guess its logical that you are all about getting things done quickly. Personally I like to work at a liesurely pace and enjoy what I'm doing. I'm totally anal about taking the time to insure that I do things the best I can. I seriously doubt that anyone building an airplane from scratch expects to have a a fuselage completely assembled in one week.

    litespeed: I could easily do a tube and gusset in a week- finished for fitting and have lots of time to drink beer and admire my work. IF it was a simple square tube version, i could also have it skinned as well. I would be well into the wings as well with the correct design.

    Winginitt: I doubt it.

    litespeed: Why keep flogging the welding horse?

    Winginitt: Because people just need a little encouragement to attempt something they have never been exposed to and are afraid to attempt. Once they do give it a proper chance it opens up all kinds of new horizons for them. Why don't you encourage people to learn rather than downplay the benefits of expanding ones abilities? Most people just need a little encouragement !
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  4. Oct 28, 2019 #164

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

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    It's still getting through Public Service ....
     
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  5. Oct 28, 2019 #165

    Vigilant1

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    Two years ago you said you'd stop banging on about welding in this thread. You claim you forgot that (understandable, since you were an entirely different user name/person), but you've since been reminded. If you want to inspire people or perform other public services, maybe start a thread where that would be on topic.

    It's like the quote function of this forum's software. Some people have perhaps never tried it. They are missing out on "entirely new horizons." So I suppose the best thing to do is to assume they don't know anything about it and then address them in a condescending tone until they see the light. They are really doing themselves a disservice by not learning how to use the software. I guess just afraid of the unknown, or unwilling to try new things.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  6. Oct 28, 2019 #166

    FritzW

    FritzW

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    ...I thought this thread was about "Alternatives to conventional welding"
     
  7. Oct 28, 2019 #167

    Winginitt

    Winginitt

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    Winginitt: Because people just need a little encouragement to attempt something they have never been exposed to and are afraid to attempt. Once they do give it a proper chance it opens up all kinds of new horizons for them. Why don't you encourage people to learn rather than downplay the benefits of expanding ones abilities? Most people just need a little encouragement !

    Vigilant1:
    Two years ago you said you'd stop banging on about welding in this thread.

    Winginitt: Two years ago I did stop. Two years later I didn't even remember the thread existed. So apparently you didn't take my (and others) advice, and you are still trying to figure out how to build an airplane without welding.

    Vigilant1: You claim you forgot that (understandable, since you were an entirely different user name/person), but you've since been reminded.

    Winginitt: Yep, two years is a long time to remember. I explained the username thing was because of a change in my service provider and the inability to access my account or HBA.....but those of you who wish to cling to the belief there was some untoward reason behind it are welcome to keep bringing it up if it satisfies some psycological need for you. I have to admit I do get a little self satisfaction out of knowing it bugs you so much.

    Vigilant1:If you want to inspire people or perform other public services, maybe start a thread where that would be on topic.
    And, I'd think someone who claims welding is so simple could learn to use the quote function provided by this forum's software. Don't be afraid of it, it is just something unfamiliar to you. Using it will open up entire new worlds, etc, etc.

    Winginitt: I know how to use the quote function, but I think it easier to respond to individual assertions than to expect readers to search for what I'm replying to. Being glib accomplishes nothing.

    You should realize that even though you start a thread, it exists for the benefit of everyone who reads it, not JUST YOU. I imagine there is a lot of "food for thought" contained in the objective responses and pictures on the thread. If you choose to ignore attempts to present honest information for EVERYONE to view, thats your choice. If you think that encouraging people to learn to weld or improve their skills in any way is something that should be excluded from threads, then perhaps you should be more considerate of others, and not so self serving..........

    Now , if you take the time to actually read what I wrote in earlier posts (the last few days), you should find a plethora of commentary on concerns about tube and gussets.....and almost nothing about welding except responses to others comments.

    So now, for the moment of truth.........Can you find ANYTHING that I wrote to be inaccurate or at issue ? If you want to discuss things, take exception with errors or mis-statements that would lead some other reader to be mislead. Thats what you should be doing. Tell me what I have identified as a cause for concern in tube and gusset construction thats untrue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  8. Oct 28, 2019 #168

    poormansairforce

    poormansairforce

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    Winginitt, please learn to use the quote feature, it would make your posts readable and be easier for you.;)
     
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  9. Oct 28, 2019 #169

    ScaleBirdsScott

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    The quote feature is sometimes a little bit of a headache to manage vs just doing whatever; but like flying in controlled airspace, there are protocols.
     
  10. Oct 29, 2019 #170

    BBerson

    BBerson

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    Click a spot on the post you are reading and a " reply" button will appear. Expand as needed, then click the reply and wait for your new reply area below.
     
  11. Oct 29, 2019 #171

    Geraldc

    Geraldc

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    And drag your cursor to highlight part to quote.Thanks for that tip.
     
  12. Oct 29, 2019 #172

    poormansairforce

    poormansairforce

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    You can do it multiple times and insert it in one step and then reply in between the individual quotes.
     
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  13. Oct 29, 2019 #173

    flywheel1935

    flywheel1935

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    Hi Guys, just before eveybody starts to go 'off topic', the photos I furnished a few days ago are of my own aircraft, The early LMA's were bonded and riveted oblong tube, but I changed some of that to square 3/4" x 3/4" due to supply issues. please feel free to ask questions, as I guess currently I'm the only builder using this method at present. IMG_1951.JPG
     
  14. Oct 29, 2019 #174

    Aerowerx

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    Problem here.

    My foot is only 11 barley corns long!;)
     
  15. Oct 29, 2019 #175

    BBerson

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    What is oblong tube?
     
  16. Oct 29, 2019 #176

    Winginitt

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    Hey, thats pretty neat and a heck of a lot easier than the way I was doing it. I'm always willing to learn a better way. Thanks Guys !;)
     
  17. Oct 29, 2019 #177

    Winginitt

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    Looks like you have made some good progress. Given the extra work to make all those new brackets, how much actual work time do you think you have in it so far? How do you plan to attach the stringers ?
     
  18. Oct 29, 2019 #178

    Vigilant1

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    Thanks for the offer, it looks like a nice build.
    1) Can you comment a bit on the recommended AL prep and HYSOL application/bonding process? According to what I've read, preparing the aluminum is key to any success with goo.
    2) Can you comment on any analysis of joint strength with vs without the adhesive? Obviously, the designer thought it important to use HYSOL, but there are a lot of flying aircraft with good service histories that just use pull rivets.
    3) Are there other approved adhesives?
    4) I've read (unsubstantiated?) opinions that adhesive will cause the rivet effectiveness to decline significantly, since it provides a soft mushy layer that reduces the grip strength of the rivet and hastens the day when they rattle loose. Any thoughts on that?
    Thanks!
     
  19. Oct 29, 2019 #179

    Aerowerx

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    Oval cross section, maybe??
     
  20. Oct 29, 2019 #180

    flywheel1935

    flywheel1935

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    WINGINITT, Now retired ,so times my own, have free use of a Hangar & Workshop only 5 miles from my home, so normally pop down there 2-3 times a week for 3-4 hours at a time, Started the build
    in March/April ish, plan to be flying by late summer next year ??. Big problem is the Hysol cure temp, which is 25C +. don't get too many days in the UK that warm, so we batch fit the gussets with clico's, then when warm, blitz the bonding and riveting. Will be sourcing a lower UK/Eu temp glue in the next few days, but as the wings dont need any bonding, thats what were building as the winter arrives. Stingers will be bonded to outside of gussets, then Ceconite, etc, MAY ???? test fly without covering fuselage, as per Breezy, as we are developing a newer/better airframe. The build process is posted in Tube & Fabric as LMA build UK as SSDR ! IMG_1953.JPG
    Oblong, read Rectangle, 1/2" X 3/4" x 0.035 thick wall, 6061-T6
     

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