The movie "Red Tails"

Discussion in 'General Experimental Aviation Questions' started by BDD, Jan 27, 2012.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Feb 1, 2012 #81

    Wagy59

    Wagy59

    Wagy59

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Farmers Branch, Texas
    Hmm...Reading all the replies and opinions just reinforces the basic instinct I've had since a child.....Humans are screwed up in general and best to stay away from them when I can:ermm:
     
  2. Feb 1, 2012 #82

    Wagy59

    Wagy59

    Wagy59

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Farmers Branch, Texas
    But let me add that for reasons unknown to me my whole neighborhood and co workers seem to love me and love having me around, and I haven't the slightest idea why...but then I'm a bit stupid as I've mentioned before:ban:
     
  3. Feb 1, 2012 #83

    Voyeurger

    Voyeurger

    Voyeurger

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Northern Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A.
    AR,
    One word. Dresden. THE perfect example of what you speak. Horrific devastation of a priceless center of the arts. Also, a perfect example of the need to lay utter waste to such beauty and innocence. The Nazi war machine is propagandizing victories everywhere, on every front. Telling those at home that all is well. It was left to America, in the heat of devastating war, to disabuse the German populace of this notion. To let the German people know what their leaders were delivering the those in England and elsewhere. War is indeed hell. It's a bad thing to start. A better thing to end. Dresden, and Hiroshima have something in common. They were BOTH intended to hasten an end to the war. Cry all you like, war is hell.
    Gary
     
  4. Feb 1, 2012 #84

    BDD

    BDD

    BDD

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    WI
    I agree. Once they are started there seems to be only one way to end them, which is why they should never be started.
     
  5. Feb 1, 2012 #85

    lurker

    lurker

    lurker

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    100
    Location:
    salisbury, NC
    since this thread seems to have gone in the direction of the role of finland in ww2, i offer you this, possibly among the best dozen war films.
    The Winter War (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    finland had a long history of problems with the USSR. sort of a frying pan/fire situation. finland chose to side with germany.
     
  6. Feb 1, 2012 #86

    Wagy59

    Wagy59

    Wagy59

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Farmers Branch, Texas
    Personally, Ive just never understood this human thing that apparently most people need someone to lead them...and that is why we have always had assholes in charge I just never understood that..... that apparent need of humans to have some jerk off leading them into oblivion As far as I can tell, most people are stupid or arrogant or educated and arrogant,,,some how one or the other ends up in charge..I learned a long long time ago to have great suspicion of anyone that aspired to to be in charge of anything
     
  7. Feb 1, 2012 #87

    Voyeurger

    Voyeurger

    Voyeurger

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Northern Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A.
    Yeah.... now that you mention it.
     
  8. Feb 2, 2012 #88

    BDD

    BDD

    BDD

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    WI
    This is because we evolved for maybe 4-6 million years in small groups and later tribes. We were encouraged by evolution to identify with those groups and to identify their survival with our own. I think that evolution favored this. As the groups and our brains became larger as with cities and then countries, we still were able to identify somehow with the larger groups. Your favorite sports team and it's fans are a kind of tribe. On the one hand it works very well and makes a lot of sense because millions of people can identify and operate to some level as a reasonably coordinated group. On the other hand it sometimes fails completely and leads to irrational behavior. One huge problem that is still very present today is that individual value is based on the group affiliation. It is amazingly easy to convince people that the people in the other group are somehow less than fully human. This is routinely done to motivate all sorts of groups of any size today. It can and has been used to justify any number of irrational untruths. As I see it, this based on primitive, limited, tribal thinking. Our civilization and social conceptions need to catch up to our technical intelligence. Otherwise huge problems will develop.

    If you have to have a tribe it's still better to be in the one with the smart guy. The smart, amoral guy without a conscience though doesn't do much good. In my opinion A.H. was probably of moderate intelligence and a severe sociopath. Somehow, enough people bought into it to give him complete power. Very bad move. Who couldn't have seen that coming?

    Ironic Edit: I just heard this morning that 75 people may have died in Egypt in a riot at a soccer game. In the past two countries started a war over the results of a soccer match. The team "identity" and for a brief time even the mob "identity" are examples of what I was talking about.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  9. Feb 2, 2012 #89

    4trade

    4trade

    4trade

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2010
    Messages:
    527
    Likes Received:
    71
    Location:
    Lahti/Finland
    That Germany part was only when allies don´t supply material for us. They told that they sell all kind of material, like tank´s, aircraft and ammunition....and they did not do it like they promise. Our government was forced to take supplies at German, and allies for them. Without that, we all speak Russian now.

    We have only few fighters at winter war....and we got more aces than anybody else, when compared to pilots/ planes. Our average statistics is 10+ victory/ one loss at fighters....and our pilots average shooting at target was 60+/ 100 bullet, when all of the world was approx 30/100.
     
  10. Feb 2, 2012 #90

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    4,063
    Likes Received:
    63
    Location:
    Oulu/Finland
    Hold on...my statements are always edited after I post them. Or do you prefer me to write tem first on a paper with pencil and reread them. Don't get picky with me mister..I am providing you information free. Or actually it is from my pay check, but whatta hell.

    Have good day !

    PS:May I correct my last sentence ? Yeah and by the way...I did not say jews...I said prisoners...there is a big difference. Himmler alone was responsible for that. See I know history...you only seem to know cartoons. Himmler was looking for jews in Finland too. Our leaders did not turn them to nazis. If you are insinuating that finns think they are superioir race you better think again. Decision for the "endlösung" took place in Wannsee Conference..there you seem to have some info about.
     
  11. Feb 2, 2012 #91

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    4,063
    Likes Received:
    63
    Location:
    Oulu/Finland
    Adolf Hitler is always in history sites shortened as AH. To be prompt..I did not erase anything. I have researched these thing for years.

    Wannsee Conference had also Heydrich and Eichmann...all high in the nazi hierarchy; Die Wannsee-Konferenz

    Himmler started the practise of "wiping out prisoners" before that conference took place. This was largely to avoid diseases due to lack of food and medicin in the east front.

    I hope this satisfies now mr BDD ? I wish to retain the right to edit my sayings also in the future..or do you oppose ?

    If you want to get the whole picture of the jews and german relations you ought to also consider studying the older kaisers of the Germany..who made pilgrimage to Jerusalem and actually gave safe haven to jews. Also french huguenots got a haven in Germany and were slayed in their own country. Remember that AH was originally from Austria when blaming all germans as evil nazis.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  12. Feb 2, 2012 #92

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,975
    Likes Received:
    4,919
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    This discussion has gone way off topic and has become somewhat vitriolic. I think all here can agree that wars are nasty affairs. They may sometimes be a necessary reaction, though negotiation is always the preferred solution.

    No one in modern history is truly "all good" or "all bad", but most lean one way or the other and some are far worse that others while others may be mostly unimpeachable, but not perfect. Even the truly "bad" ones sometimes have done good or noteworthily positive things despite being responsible for many attrocities.

    Wars sometimes call for radical actions, and it is the individual and collective conscience that must decide where to draw that line or condemn it. Wartime actions that fall into the wide spectrum of the "grey area" sometimes serve little purpose, but sometimes yield significant results toward ending the war... again, it is up to the collective conscience to decide where to draw the line.

    History - in particular, the history of war - is often understated, embellished, twisted, rewritten, exagerated, or misinterpretted, depending on who won the war and who's point of view is taken.

    The bottom line, though, is that there are going to be differences of opinion that we are not going to resolve here, nor is this the place to do so, and the tone that some of these posts have taken is inappropriate for this forum and does a disservice to us all.

    Lively, spirited debate... wonderful.
    Vitriolic infighting... terrible (and not welcomed).
    Staying on topic and staying friends... PRICELESS!

    Bruce :)

    P.S. - This is my version of negotiation instead of war.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  13. Feb 2, 2012 #93

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    4,063
    Likes Received:
    63
    Location:
    Oulu/Finland

    The movie is "nearly uncut" in YouTube; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp0O78bNXfI&feature=related
    First line is from the lady; If you could look after your little brother Paavo there !

    Kauhava is where I was born ( the unit consisted of my hometown boys ).
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  14. Feb 2, 2012 #94

    lurker

    lurker

    lurker

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    385
    Likes Received:
    100
    Location:
    salisbury, NC
    sir:
    it was not my intention to criticize finland, or finns. i just wanted to share a movie title that might be of interest.

    finland faced a hard choice, and sided with what it believed to be the lesser of two evils, to repel invasion by the soviet union. while we can criticize their choice in retrospect, no one can dispute that finns performed magnificently in the face of near-overwhelming odds.
     
  15. Feb 2, 2012 #95

    BDD

    BDD

    BDD

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2005
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    WI
    Don't worry. I'm not insinuating anything about Finland (I did not and will not say what national heritage these people had, it serves no purpose.....what they told me certainly shocked me though). My wife is 1/2 Finnish, by the way. I also respect your right to edit your own posts. I do that myself for typo's. Honestly though you are incorrect for placing blame on one person. I think you should examine how your specific national history and view may have altered how you see things. Finland had a "Devil's choice" to make. In the translation that might sound like a perjorative but it isn't. There are tough choices to be made and your small country was forced into them. I don't think there is any blame there. Finland, certainly didn't start the war. No matter what though, your very specific national history should never be a reason to "gloss over" things that have to be known and recognized. Otherwise they risk being repeated.

    You have a good day too and I mean it.
     
  16. Feb 2, 2012 #96

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    4,063
    Likes Received:
    63
    Location:
    Oulu/Finland

    You ought to know that finns did not know about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact..where germans actually sold finns to USSR before WW II. There was only a handful of volunteer to help Finland when USSR marched...or tried to march to Finland. Continuation War was a different matter...then finns were prepared and knew about the invasion plans of the germans. I bet the findings at Katyn etc made the germans change tune torwards USSR and decided about Barbarossa operation. Nazis overestimated their might..they said openly ( Heinkels memoirs ) that it will be a 2 weeks war. Possibly same "bull" was sold to finns too and our military head figured that the lost Karelia will be retaken in a jiffy when Germany defeats USSR.

    We did have good relations in 1918 with Germany, when they helped to defeat the soviet backed reds in Finland. Finns also elected Friedrich Karl of Hessen as their king...who never came. Also the money was a markka in Finland and number one foreign language was german. Now it is english..hardly anyone studies german.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2012
  17. Feb 13, 2012 #97

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    topspeed100

    Banned

    Joined:
    May 4, 2009
    Messages:
    4,063
    Likes Received:
    63
    Location:
    Oulu/Finland
  18. Feb 15, 2012 #98

    George Sychrovsky

    George Sychrovsky

    George Sychrovsky

    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2003
    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    27
    Location:
    Shirley airport MA
    Well I tried to watch it, 35 minutes into it I gave up, this is a dumb B movie
     
  19. Feb 15, 2012 #99

    Will Aldridge

    Will Aldridge

    Will Aldridge

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    366
    Location:
    Northern Utah
    I did sit through the whole thing but it was definitely money wasted. The movie Tuskeegee Airmen with Laurence Fishburne was 10 times better on 1/10 the budget.
     
  20. Feb 15, 2012 #100

    millerdvr

    millerdvr

    millerdvr

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Missoula, MT
    Don't have anything good to say then don't say it at all.
     

Share This Page



arrow_white