The future of Part 103

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

lr27

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
3,822
If you're going to have multiple engines, the aircraft had better be easy to fly with one engine out or there will be a big safety problem.
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,119
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
I suppose anything is possible if nobody is looking. For an Ultralight/Light Sport business to set up at my airport, the airport manager will require approval from the FAA.

I guess you are saying that giving a joy ride in any EA-B and getting money is legal as long as it isn't logged?
No that is not what I said. You as a Light Sport Pilot or Private Pilot can not fly for compensation or hire. That is the regulation. You as a professional photographer can take and sell aerial photos. You can put video up on the internet. You can even teach Spanish for a fee to your Spanish student while on a long cross country to KOSH.

You can not, as a LS or Private Pilot, charge a student pilot for flight training for two reasons. !. It is flight training and therefore not incidental to flight. 2. You are being paid to fly the plane. You can not give logable Sport Pilot training if you are not a CFI. You can give a light sport student pilot, ultralight pilot or the general public flight instruction any time you like in whatever aircraft you are legal to fly. Only the time logged with a CFI (some exceptions may exist) will count towards a certificate or rating.

As far as the "at my airport" comment goes, he will probably require bath rooms, disability access, parking, and hundreds of other things too. Work out of your garage and just go to the airport to take off or land. It is a public use airport.
 
Last edited:

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
13,244
Location
Port Townsend WA
I don't see any market for Sport or ultralight flight training. I only had two possible Light Sport candidates if I had a Light Sport to train them in the past 5 years. I figured a ride business might work since something like a million tourists come by in the summer. But nobody wants a "150 or 172 airplane ride". If anything they want open cockpit thrill/scenic ride.
A thrill/scenic ride can be advertised in any type certificated open cockpit biplane. A thrill/scenic ride cannot be offered or advertised in a SLSA because the Light Sport only allows flight training not commercial tours.

I might want an open cockpit ultralight like aircraft to do all this, but that doesn't exist.
 

WBNH

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2006
Messages
311
Location
Portsmouth, NH
I don't see any market for Sport or ultralight flight training.
That's pretty much all the training around me. There's a school with two 172's, but the rest of the fleet are Cubs and Champs (LSA). The new school that opened recently up here has a Beech Sundowner for Instrument Rating, but primarily trains LSA in two RV 12s and a Flight Design CT.

None of which is the same as using a Challenger or Flightstar II to train someone for their future Ultralight, however.
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
13,244
Location
Port Townsend WA
Well that is good that LSA training is available in your area, which I guess cuts the typical 70 hours for a Private certificate to something around 50 hours for a typical Sport Pilot? Still nothing like 10 hours an ultralight pilot might need.
My interest is 90% rides and 10% instruction.
It won't happen unless they allow commercial rides in an affordable open cockpit.
 
Last edited:

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,119
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
Well that is good that LSA training is available in your area, which I guess cuts the typical 70 hours for a Private certificate to something around 50 hours for a typical Sport Pilot? Still nothing like 10 hours an ultralight pilot might need.
My interest is 90% rides and 10% instruction.
It won't happen unless they allow commercial rides in an affordable open cockpit.
You are right. There are many who want to fly and the have $ but not $$$. The cost of flight training is to high in relation to the benefits received. Light Sport raised the cost of flying 5 fold and killed the Ultralight industry in exchange for reduced exposure to danger for prospective flyers.

103 will not prosper until costs are decreased and/or benefits are increased. That is what we should be working on here.

I guess we agree that a $250,000 Great Lakes would not pay for itself and turn a profit. Why not? What will the market support? Your comments. Have you talked to the Great Lakes (I think) operator on Orcas Island. He has been in business for many years and you should have as much traffic as he does.

The other possibility is a Cub. What purchase price would let you break even for a single passenger in a Cub? That May be doable in your area. Hook up with the air museum for customers. The Cub hits two hot spots. It has a STC and is light sport eligible. With the big side doors open it is close to open cockpit and has that classic look.
 
Last edited:

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
13,244
Location
Port Townsend WA
Yeah, Captain Mac of Orcas Island introduced 18,000 with rides in 40 years. His three place Travelair is part of the key to make profit that allows his airport operation, here:https://www.orcasbiplanerides.com/.
He could have an ultralight type trainer also, but it might not make a profit on a small island since it can't be used for scenic rides.
I never talked to him, but looked at his operation during a fly-in.
A Cub is only one passenger per flight and not quite like open cockpit or unusual. If I had a Cub most likely I would need to get a full CFI because most seem to want the Private anyway.
I like folding wings so it could go home for winter off season. I would consider break even, but not a direct operating loss forever.
 
Last edited:

ryanjames170

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2012
Messages
146
Location
Rice lake and Hayward WI
I think what is killing anything avation is the fact the younger generations are not as per say rich as they used to be.. what I mean by that is it seams $ in vs $ out for cost of living are getting closer together..

Knew a guy who was a Lt Col in the air force who did a study about this a few years ago as part of a thesis paper he had to do.. and had came up with the fact that collage education is gone way up in cost but the job you get when your done all bit pays more then it did 30 years ago is not paying the $$$ vs cost of living more then it used to. Basically your no longer getting much farther ahead if any with it and Stuck with huge bills after the fact.

Lots of people out there I'm sure that would like to get into it but most of them will never be able to afford it.
 

addicted2climbing

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2012
Messages
1,057
Location
Glendale, CA
I think what is killing anything avation is the fact the younger generations are not as per say rich as they used to be.. what I mean by that is it seams $ in vs $ out for cost of living are getting closer together..

Knew a guy who was a Lt Col in the air force who did a study about this a few years ago as part of a thesis paper he had to do.. and had came up with the fact that collage education is gone way up in cost but the job you get when your done all bit pays more then it did 30 years ago is not paying the $$$ vs cost of living more then it used to. Basically your no longer getting much farther ahead if any with it and Stuck with huge bills after the fact.

Lots of people out there I'm sure that would like to get into it but most of them will never be able to afford it.
Thats why I only have an AS degree... :) Well not really, but I have been doing the work of a Mechanical Engineer for 25 years and learned so much in my first few jobs that I had enough job experience to command a decent salary despite the degree. However, when times are tough and engineers are not in demand it is tougher to get the interview, but I have enough contacts I can usually find work through past coworkers or consult. Despite all this, I always regretted not finishing my degree so decided to pursue a patent of my own as a feather in my cap instead of "what school did you go to". Having the Patent really has helped get me the interview but with most of my knowledge coming from job experience I do realize I have a fair amount of holes in knowledge, but self study usually helps when needed. Heck to be honest I forgot all my calculus and trig, if I want to know an angle I just draw the lines I do know in Solidworks and measure the angle. Just another tool to get the answer...

With STEM being more in the forefront now and robotics everywhere I hope it leads to more of an internship type of learning with perhaps less university in the future... The system needs to change and as do the schools general business structure.
 

Victor Bravo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
7,451
Location
KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
Well thank you to everyone who is addressing my questions about being an ultralight instructor, even though it is only a sub-topic of the main thread. But I believe it is relavant to "the future of Part 103" because of the lack of UL instructors in many parts of the country.

A couple or three of you guys are obviously professional pilots or retired professionals, maybe more than a couple. I appreciate the educated input. But I am having trouble understanding (or believing) one or two of the concepts that is being mentioned...

As a Private Pilot authorized to take non-pilot passengers in my in my Cessna 172, if I take someone up in that aircraft and provide them with essentially hands-on dual flight instruction, you're saying that because I am positioning this instruction as "ultralight instruction" (instead of PPL or Sport Pilot instruction) the FAA is completely OK with me doing this????

I would still be charging someone money to fly in my 172 with me, without a commercial pilot license. It would seem that the FAA could bust me for that alone, regardless of whether I was or was not giving instruction. Am I missing something?
 
Last edited:

lr27

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
3,822
Thats why I only have an AS degree... :) Well not really, but I have been doing the work of a Mechanical Engineer for 25 years snip
You're a quick learner. I've had friends who needed 7 or so more years than you to really learn that higher education hurts. Only took me about 4 years to get that pounded through my thick skull. OTOH, I think an undergraduate education, if it's relatively broad, can have returns in more than just financial terms. And not just for the individuals who have it.
 

Dana

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Messages
9,257
Location
CT, USA
As a Private Pilot authorized to take non-pilot passengers in my in my Cessna 172, if I take someone up in that aircraft and provide them with essentially hands-on dual flight instruction, you're saying that because I am positioning this instruction as "ultralight instruction" (instead of PPL or Sport Pilot instruction) the FAA is completely OK with me doing this????

I would still be charging someone money to fly in my 172 with me, without a commercial pilot license. It would seem that the FAA could bust me for that alone, regardless of whether I was or was not giving instruction. Am I missing something?
As a Private Pilot you can't charge, but you can give free instruction.
 

jedi

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
2,119
Location
Sahuarita Arizona, Renton Washington, USA
Well thank you to everyone who is addressing my questions about being an ultralight instructor, even though it is only a sub-topic of the main thread. But I believe it is relavant to "the future of Part 103" because of the lack of UL instructors in many parts of the country.

A couple or three of you guys are obviously professional pilots or retired professionals, maybe more than a couple. I appreciate the educated input. But I am having trouble understanding (or believing) one or two of the concepts that is being mentioned...

As a Private Pilot authorized to take non-pilot passengers in my in my Cessna 172, if I take someone up in that aircraft and provide them with essentially hands-on dual flight instruction, you're saying that because I am positioning this instruction as "ultralight instruction" (instead of PPL or Sport Pilot instruction) the FAA is completely OK with me doing this????

I would still be charging someone money to fly in my 172 with me, without a commercial pilot license. It would seem that the FAA could bust me for that alone, regardless of whether I was or was not giving instruction. Am I missing something?
Yes. But you can not charge for air time, only ground time as an ultralight instructor. A person wanting to fly a single seat ultralight will need a lot of ground training. That is you on the ground and him in his aircraft while you watch and critique his practice. I suggest $200/day minimum. "As a Private Pilot authorized to take non-pilot passengers in my in my Cessna 172, if I take someone up in that aircraft and provide them with essentially hands-on dual flight instruction, you're saying that because I am positioning this instruction as "ultralight instruction" (instead of PPL or Sport Pilot instruction) the FAA is completely OK with me doing this????"

"I would still be charging someone money to fly in my 172 with me, without a commercial pilot license. It would seem that the FAA could bust me for that alone, regardless of whether I was or was not giving instruction. Am I missing something?" That is a No No! If you had a commercial certificate it is a different story.

Please contact me or others that have done single seat UL training for guidance and/or advice if you decide to take on this challenge. BTW you can do the same for a sport pilot or private pilot but the time can not be logged as dual by the student. You can charge all the market will bear for ground instruction but it does not apply towards certificate/regularity requirements unless you have a ground instructors certificate.
 
Last edited:

TFF

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
13,049
Location
Memphis, TN
If you take someone up and it's not commercial, all you can ask for is Pro Rata share. That's plain part 91 ppl everyone was tested on when they got their license stuff. Whatever drug deal you make on the ground has nothing to do with flying. If you just want in and out, you are going to have to pay. I have known people to get $100,000 worth of training free because they were nice, available for fun, and liked to hang out. Everyone fits in between those two points. Make your best deal and live with it.
 

Hot Wings

Grumpy Cynic
HBA Supporter
Log Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Messages
7,074
Location
Rocky Mountains
As a Private Pilot you can't charge, but you can give free instruction.
I think what was being suggested is that while he can't charge for flight instruction, or even a ride in the plane, he could charge for for instruction in grant writing, or charge billable hours for an existing grant writing client, while flying. The fact that the class or consultation session kept getting sidetracked/interrupted with flying chores and 'bits of flying trivia' just makes him an overpriced and ineffective grant writer.

While maybe technically legal, like some of the things that have been suggested for enhancing the performance of part 103 vehicles, it's not in the spirit of the regulation. Risky.........
 

BBerson

Light Plane Philosopher
HBA Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
13,244
Location
Port Townsend WA
VB, FAR61.113 gives details about a Private Pilot sharing cost only. You need a commercial to earn a profit in the air.
It is hard to get clients without a legitimate airport operation or good word of mouth from the local community of pilots.:ermm:

I learned this long ago. I wanted to give rides in my Cherokee. I had an airport shop but was only a Private no commercial. I put a note on the supermarket bulletin board "commercial pilot wanted to give rides". I got one call from a pilot the next day and one call from the government that said I can't do that.
 

Turd Ferguson

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
5,097
Location
Upper midwest in a house
he could charge for for instruction in grant writing, or charge billable hours for an existing grant writing client, while flying.
I think it will be difficult to show the flying was only incidental in that scenario.

Aerial photography makes a good example: If you happen to take a picture while you are flying and later sell that picture, that's fine. But if you operate Bob's aerial photography, the flying is no longer incidental to the business - it is an integral part of the business. Airborne grant writing puts you in the same bucket as Bob's aerial photography. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.........
 

Victor Bravo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2014
Messages
7,451
Location
KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
Because I am an STC holder and a PMA holder (certified aircraft parts, irrelevant to HBA) I have a pretty good reputation with the local FAA ACO and MIDO office. I would very much like to keep this reputation, so pushing on any of the (pilot / aircraft operation) rules would eventually cause me some discomfort with the (STC-PMA) side.

So in my case I would try to stay within the intent of the rules, as opposed to finding loopholes.
 
Top