The "Don't turn back" thing:

Discussion in 'Rules and Regulations / Flight Safety / Better Pil' started by PTAirco, Jul 18, 2012.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Jul 31, 2012 #21

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Topaz

    Super Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,873
    Likes Received:
    5,483
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    Not hitting the ground at all would be preferable. And angle of attack and angle to the ground are two entirely different things. Deprived of flying speed, a canard aircraft most certainly will nose-down until the canard is unstalled.
     
    bmcj likes this.
  2. Jul 31, 2012 #22

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,974
    Likes Received:
    4,919
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    Or develop a high mushing sink rate?
     
  3. Aug 1, 2012 #23

    Lead Brick

    Lead Brick

    Lead Brick

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Nether Regions
    Just dont' do it like this. :shock:

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2019
  4. Aug 2, 2012 #24

    Brohawk

    Brohawk

    Brohawk

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2007
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
  5. Aug 2, 2012 #25

    bmcj

    bmcj

    bmcj

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2007
    Messages:
    12,974
    Likes Received:
    4,919
    Location:
    Fresno, California
    He held full left rudder (into the turn) trying to skid it around. Deadly mistake and the quickest way to stall the inside wing. They described them as an experienced aerobatic team, but that seems a rookie mistake to me.
     
  6. Aug 2, 2012 #26

    StarJar

    StarJar

    StarJar

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,723
    Likes Received:
    403
    Location:
    El Centro, California, USA
    Speaking of that, one time I was hanging out at El Monte Airport, and a guy from our flight club was flying a Grumman AA1-B around the circuit. He was sort of a wise xxx, and he kept flying a real tight base, and skidding the plane onto a real short final and then landing.

    The last time he did it the plane didn't like it and initiated a snap roll when he was about 10 feet off the ground. The right wingtip hit the runway, at about 80 degree bank, and the bright, new, yellow Grumman did a few cartwheels, and then skidded upside down. The guy was lucky enough to walk away from it, but it could have easily been his last little trick.

    Sorry, off topic, but just one the few accidents I've actually seen, and it relates to skidding turns:eek:bviously a no-no.
     
  7. Aug 2, 2012 #27

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,202
    Likes Received:
    2,401
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    Yep, full left rudder is clear from the video (watching frame by frame), even still had full left rudder at impact. Looks like full aft stick as well maybe, but can't say for sure. This video should be required for all pilots.

    The problem is that the turn requires more energy than normal forward flight. Without an engine this increased energy has to come from an increased descent rate. Much more sink than most pilots are used to in normal forward flight and hence the impulse to pull on the stick and cause the plane to spin in nose first while holding full aft stick.
     
  8. Aug 3, 2012 #28

    Richard6

    Richard6

    Richard6

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    671
    Likes Received:
    76
    Location:
    Plymouth, MN USA
    So my flying is in a LSA. Normal take off includes about 10 to 15 degs of flap. As air speed builds up to normal climb air speed (about 75mph) and about 600 to 700 AGL, I reduce the flaps to zero.

    Then the question is, if at this point, I would suffer some sort of engine malfunction where the engine quits entirely or just loses power, I’m guessing straight ahead landing is in order, but should I leave the flaps set at take off setting or quickly reduce them to zero ?

    As I understand it, flaps allow a slower landing speed but also increase drag, so what’s a guy to do.

    Richard
     
  9. Aug 3, 2012 #29

    Aircar

    Aircar

    Aircar

    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    3,567
    Likes Received:
    367
    Location:
    Melbourne Australia
    The glider crash video shows what appears to be an incipient spin but even so the aircraft remains upright and judging by the rate of spin after the actual impact the landing gear is still functional -- even the tail remains attached despite the extreme shaking and the fuselage shell is intact . The lessons from that one are not all about pilot behaviour --the crashworthiness aspect is significant in itself and molded glass airframes have proved to be ,by and large, a big improvement on wooden shell structures but a little less rugged than metal (with the proviso that some metal aircraft have come apart at structural joins in zipper fashion )

    The Tiger moth crash is not surprising given the extra drag of a wingwalker and the relatively low power of the aircraft to start with --the entire idea of 'death cheating' airshow acts like this eludes me , one day this will happen at Oshkosh and possibly into the crowd --probably from age related health reasons as the veteran air show performers gradually fade away ;-- it is like tieing people to the bumper bars of NASCAR or something just to prove how foolish or arrogant you are when the consequences are perfectly obvious and the purpose obscure.

    At least in the great depression people were desperate and had an excuse to try to lure a crowd hoping to see exactly what transpired in the video --hanging from landing gear legs was another stunt that guaranteed being killed if anything went wrong (Kingsford Smith used to do it in the twenties and related nearly being killed ) --possibly this sort of thing had some role in the in flight transfer of oil from a dead engine to the opposite number during a trans Tasman (ocean) flight of the Fokker tri motor which saved their lives (crawling along the struts in the slipstream with oil in a jug --slippery rigging etc ) -- risks that are justified or calculated are one thing but just death defying re runs of the roaring twenties or whatever is just stupid. EAA should take notice .

    The tiger has automatic leading edge slats and a pretty benign stall but he must have been looking at something pretty uninviting straightahead (barbed wire fence ?) to turn at all --maybe there was some wind gradient at the time but certainly the rudder was misused (and seems like no aileron ) The fuel tank on the Tiger is a separate ribbed metal tank between the top wings and right over the front pilot --I was once deluged with fuel when our Tiger tank split in flight (after refuelling at the main aerodrome and en route to the glider field ) -goggles protected my eyes but the burning sensation in 'sensitive' areas was excruciating
    --there was nowhere to land and the fire risk was the worst part (wrapping the tank in Kevlar --as for the Hughes 300 mod would be a **** good idea for an AD and might have prevented loss of life in this crash even )
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  10. Aug 3, 2012 #30

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,983
    Likes Received:
    890
    Location:
    Gold Coast, East Coast of Australia
    There aren't any hard and fast rules about this, some things to consider -

    1. Have you practiced with your climb airspeed? 75mph sounds a little fast for most LSAa in which case you won't have as much height when the engine fails, as you could have had. Do some upper air work and determine your best climb speed.

    2. Again, do some upper air work, cut your power and see how much height you lose in a 360 degree turn, then you will know the minimum height AGL that you could even consider turning back - and that's if you use the 'downwind drift' method.

    3. If the engine fails soon after takeoff, and even if you are at a height where you could turn back it is still better and safer to go within 45 degrees of straight ahead if there is somewhere suitable to land. If it is all trees or rocks then you might consider turning back, but if there is anywhere at all ahead then that is the safer option.

    4. Use your flaps as you would for a normal landing but if you need to glide further into wind to a landing place then stow them until you know you will reach it.

    5. Practice, practice, practice - just keep on making up scenarios and practice them with a safe height. Get up to 1500ft over a quiet airstrip and reduce to idle and practice your forced landings until you can land on the chosen spot every time without using any power again, practice with and without flaps, with and without slipping. Beware if you have an aircooled engine not to shock cool it, give a burst of throttle regularly, liquid cooled engines are OK just idling. Once you can land on the spot every time do it with the engine switched off, and keep doing it until you are perfectly comfortable without the engine. Once you get that far you will be ready to practice real turnbacks, with engine, from a safe height if you wish to, then you will see how difficult they are. Remember that different wind conditions make a huge difference, so what works one day may not the next.
     
  11. Aug 3, 2012 #31

    autoreply

    autoreply

    autoreply

    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,732
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    Location:
    Rotterdam, Netherlands
    That's excellent advise.

    What most pilots overlook is that humans are incapable of making complex decisions in split seconds. Yes, plenty of pilots survived that turn back. But we have to realize that's luck, not skill...

    In gliders I always called out the decision heights. 180 ft for a 180, 300 ft for a shortened pattern (360) during winching. If I didn't climb steep enough, I immediately released the cable and landed straight ahead. On some mountain airfields not aborting launch would mean being in a corner where crashing in a mountain was the only alternative...
    During towing I always knew where the survivable patches were ahead. Airline pilots do the same (V1).

    SEP pilots should actually be doing the same thing. Look at the altitude where you can safely do a 180 and practice it (at safe altitude) and simply call it out every single take-off. Know where the landable/crashable fields are in your directions of take-off before you strap your seat belts on...
     
  12. Aug 3, 2012 #32

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,202
    Likes Received:
    2,401
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    The problem with practicing the 180 turn at altitude is that the altimeter is slow to react.
    If your altimeter shows a loss of say 300 feet, it is probably really more like 400 feet or more.

    I tried doing a few 180 degree turns near a mountain top as a reference. It seemed I had dropped a larger distance down the side of the mountain than shown on the altimeter. Of course, always turn away from the mountain if you try this.
    Any other safe way to determine the best turn back altitude?
     
  13. Aug 3, 2012 #33

    autoreply

    autoreply

    autoreply

    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    10,732
    Likes Received:
    2,542
    Location:
    Rotterdam, Netherlands
    A cellphone. IGC loggers are very common with sailplane pilots, but most smartphones can log your position every second (GPS). Naturally, only after the flight you can review altitude loss etc. Make sure to fly some straight tracks at a single IAS (say 100 kts) to "calibrate" your logger for winds, so you also know your actual speeds during the maneuver. Google earth can visualize your flight as can various other (free) programs. The inaccuracy of GPS is only in time and distance, so if you're doing your flying within minutes and a few miles, you can probably measure relative accuracy in feet, not yards.

    Mountains are an excellent reference for these things but the highest "mountain" within 300 NM from here is 2000 ft, so that's not the most practical approach for us...
     
  14. Aug 4, 2012 #34

    millerdvr

    millerdvr

    millerdvr

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Missoula, MT
    Any chance you could scrounge up that picture for us to see? I searched a bit for it with no luck.


     
  15. Aug 4, 2012 #35

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,983
    Likes Received:
    890
    Location:
    Gold Coast, East Coast of Australia
    Sadly I couldn't find it either, I saw it many years ago in a 'coffee-table book'.

    Here's a consolation pic, not nearly as good but it shows the general theme... the other was an aerial photo.

    Jenny at Carlstrom Field.jpg
     
  16. Aug 4, 2012 #36

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,202
    Likes Received:
    2,401
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    Dense willow trees about 20 feet high are almost ideal for use at the end of the runway to crash into.
    I watched a 2-22 glider land short of the runway into 20 foot willow trees. No harm to the pilots. The glider came to a rapid stop then fell gently to the ground. The lift strut collapsed from the negative loaded ground impact, but that was the only damage and easily repaired.
     
  17. Aug 8, 2012 #37

    Richard6

    Richard6

    Richard6

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    671
    Likes Received:
    76
    Location:
    Plymouth, MN USA

    Yea, the practice landing with engine at idle is something I should be working on, as I had some trouble during my check flight getting my approach height to the field correct. Some of the problem involved the wind. Did not compensate for drift the first time and was way short of the runway, then on the second try, got in to high and to fast. But I got an E for effort !
     
  18. Aug 8, 2012 #38

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,983
    Likes Received:
    890
    Location:
    Gold Coast, East Coast of Australia
    This is really good stuff to hear Richard.

    Unfortunately far too many folks who don't get it quite right on their check rides just don't bother to practice at other times, either because they're worried about getting it wrong on their own, or, far worse, they believe they're good enough already and don't need to practice.

    On the other hand, the wiser folks just keep on practicing and the more they do so, the better they get but they also become more critical of themselves so they practice even more. Before long they get really pretty good at it and then it becomes a real pleasure to do still more practice.

    It's funny to be at the clubhouse and listen to those who feel they are already good enough and they are watching someone out practicing. The amazing amount of advice they have for him/her. A couple of months down the track and the one practicing has reached the stage of competence where they are regularly switching the engine off (not idling) and making perfect spot landings every time - the advisers will be discussing how dangerous the practicer has become.... ironic!

    They say practice makes perfect but I, for one, still have a lot of practicing to do because I'm nowhere near perfect - so I'll see ya in the circuit!
     
    StarJar likes this.
  19. Aug 9, 2012 #39

    Battson

    Battson

    Battson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    610
    Likes Received:
    96
    Location:
    New Zealand
    It's funny to be at the forum and listen to those who feel they are already good enough and they are watching someone watch someone out practicing...

    :ban:

    Luck you said you're still practicing!
     
  20. Aug 9, 2012 #40

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Head in the clouds

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,983
    Likes Received:
    890
    Location:
    Gold Coast, East Coast of Australia
    Certainly - I'll never stop practicing, never know when I'll be needing well honed skills...

    In the '70s when I learned to fly, the accent was on constant practice to keep your existing skills, improve upon them and develop new ones. We were taught that 'now you have your licence and can fly alone so the real learning will begin'.

    In the '80s when I had flying schools I made a point of teaching that concept. Later I went GA commercial flying and since I returned to the sports aviation scene I have been mortified to see that very few pilots practice much at all once they're licenced. They weren't taught to do so and so many have the belief that they learned all they needed to know while at flight school.

    At our local club school I often yarn with the CFI who bemoans that when folks turn up for their bi-annual the same ones are still unable to perform their emergencies satisfactorily. Strangely he still passes them... and it's no wonder that those particular ones have the greatest range of near-miss stories to tell.
     

Share This Page



arrow_white