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bmcj

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So, did Mahoney get a raw deal?
Seems like another example of Reno cutting it's own throat.
Dang good looking airplane.

View attachment 107064
I agree. RARA has pulled this more than once. Another example is the rules change to unlimited that pretty much rules out smaller high tech single point designs like the Pond Racer (or others that may follow in the same footsteps). There was nothing wrong with Sorceress.

If they are really concerned about ‘fair’, they should pick a single stardardized design and add a ‘stock’ biplane class, much like they did with the T-6’s.
 
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rv6ejguy

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When I was a young lad, I read about this plane and thought it was way cool. Used a lot of structural adhesive instead of rivets if I recall. A shame it wasn't allowed to keep racing. The innovators are always punished in racing it seems.
 

Victor Bravo

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Doesn't this happen in all racing? I understand that even in F-1 and NASCAR if you have some sort of technology leap that is too big, they will put rules into place to keep everyone else competitive. Wasn't there something like that in F-1 or Indy when they started vacuuming the air out from under the cars?

I see both sides of the argument though. If I was running a multi-billion dollar sport, where huge companies paid millions in sponsorships, and millions of fans bought tickets and see close racing... and then one racer ran away from everyone else... I could easily see people not as excited to buy a ticket, because "XYZ team always wins by mile".
 
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Bille Floyd

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Doesn't this happen in all racing? I understand that even in F-1 and NASCAR if you have some sort of technology leap that is too big, they will put rules into place to keep everyone else competitive.
...
You just described , "America's cup" racing ; to a T .
But WOW ; what Racing !!

Bille
 

TarDevil

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I remember reading an article about Sorceress years (many years) ago. The author was interviewing Beck prior to a flight demo. After takeoff the airshow announcer said Beck would do some aerobatics. The author rushed to the announcer's stand to advise that Sorceress wasn't an aerobatic plane when he observed Beck flying the show line doing the "best point rolls I've ever seen."
 

12notes

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Doesn't this happen in all racing? I understand that even in F-1 and NASCAR if you have some sort of technology leap that is too big, they will put rules into place to keep everyone else competitive. Wasn't there something like that in F-1 or Indy when they started vacuuming the air out from under the cars?

I see both sides of the argument though. If I was running a multi-billion dollar sport, where huge companies paid millions in sponsorships, and millions of fans bought tickets and see close racing... and then one racer ran away from everyone else... I could easily see people not as excited to buy a ticket, because "XYZ team always wins by mile".
It's less likely to be banned in F1 (car), they usually let innovations stand that fit into the grey areas of the rules. The Brabham fan car was sucking up all the dirt, tire "marbles", and debris and launching it at any car following it. It was voluntarily withdrawn after 1 race even though the FIA had ruled it legal for the rest of the season, because all the other teams would have had to follow suit and make getting close enough to pass dangerous. They let Tyrell run their 6 wheel car for two seasons before the team gave up on it, and last year let Mercedes run a dual axis steering system where you could push in the steering wheel to remove the toe in from the front tires on the straight, and pull it back to return the alignment for the corners.

NASCAR and Indy are basically spec car series now. F1 (car) teams usually have changes at every race, usually small aerodynamic ones, but occasionally something really new.

Now we don't want Air Racing to approach F1 costs (the top 2 teams each spent over $400 million to run 2 cars each in 2019), but I sure do wish aviation could afford the aerodynamics research and airflow control that results is a front wing on an F1 car looking like these:

Front-Wing-696x687.jpg
 

TarDevil

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I wish I could find the exact quote but I remember Ed Browning stating he could field 6 Indy cars for the price of his Red Baron P-51.
Going fast ain't cheap.
 

pwood66889

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Changing the rules when technically advanced models win (or come close) is not new. Happened in the 1050's, at Indy. Turbine powered cars have been reduced to inlet sizes that guarentee they will be lapped by the entire field eventually...
 

rv7charlie

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There were others very similar to that one; I got to see this one at an HKS airshow/open house many years ago. After it got 'retired', it ended up in a collection in Arkansas, and the owner let it be flown in air shows. Lyc 320, cut down fixed pitch metal prop, and sounded like an F1 *car* doing high speed passes at 3600 rpm.

Charlie
 

Aesquire

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My favorite "banned!" story is from NASCAR. Smokey Yunick showed up at the track with the alternator mounted behind the grill, with a model airplane prop on it. It takes a pile of HP to run an alternator, and Smokey figured the battery would run the car fine until it got to speed, and at over 100+ mph there was plenty of flow to spin the charging system up. Worked great in testing.

They had a meeting on the spot and wrote a rule to ban it before he could run.

Not as funny as the fuel tank designed to be partially collapsible, which was the legal size at the beginning of the race, but with the application of a rag & air hose, had the bottom drop a few inches...and gain gallons. Then at the last pit stop, a quick levering of a jack to re-collapse the tank restored it to legal capacity.

I don't recall the name of the motorcycle racer who while doing his victory lap, was pounding the daylights out of his hand formed aluminum fuel tank, you know, out of enthusiasm. ;)

Often these thing are to save money for the normal racer, who can't afford the latest technology, or sometimes, to keep one company from winning. Formula 1 one year, Elf had a magic fuel that let them run insane manifold pressures, so they changed the rules. The end results, between reality and lobbying, often cost more and just move the near monopoly of wins around, but usually the motivation, at least officially, is "fairness".
 

TFF

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When you, with one race, turn all others into a has-been it’s hard to pick the right side. All racing has this problem since the first foot race. Let everyone else fight for second or make one person come up with a more compliant craft instead if 20-30 others. It’s better to chase a world record than a race if it’s going to be that different. Personally I like the inventiveness, but if you make everyone quit, not much fun that way either. People can stomach 3-5% better. If you are 25% better, slamming everyone makes everyone quit. The best never show the full hand, and that’s what killed it. They could have just pushed the power up enough; they could have done it for years.
 
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TarDevil

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When you, with one race, turn all others into a has-been it’s hard to pick the right side.
You perfectly described the unlimited class since Voodoo and Strega retired... Dreadnaught for the win by a wide margin. But RARA sure doesn't want Sanders unhappy with all the iron he brings to Reno.
 

rv6ejguy

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You perfectly described the unlimited class since Voodoo and Strega retired... Dreadnaught for the win by a wide margin. But RARA sure doesn't want Sanders unhappy with all the iron he brings to Reno.
With the fast planes retired, unlimited has turned much less interesting to watch and it's typically been the big crowd draw. That puts the whole event in question. I think the ticket sales were down in 2019 which isn't a good sign. A rule change didn't do this, high costs did.

There will be a new Unlimited debut in 2022 if the race lasts that long, maybe bringing some new blood into the class but RARA may have to change the rules allowing newer aircraft into the class if they want to survive.
 

TFF

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The advertising money is shrinking for NASCAR and has shrunk a lot for Indy cars. Broadcast TV is not where people watch anymore. Reno except for Wild World of Sports never got much exposure. The closest I have been to Reno was the ill attempt off the Mississippi River early 2000s. One phone pole on the course that would have been easily moved killed the potential for more races. It would have taken more time to get big crowds but supposedly they had funding for three years to get it going.
A buddy of mine just passed away from the virus; he was one of the head pylon judges. Had been doing it for 20+ years.

My airport had a Seafury for about ten years. For as big and bad as it was, it was not a P-51. It was a bargain when the owner got it and he made a little money when he sold it, but he sold it for ego. Egos are big and when you are always second or third best because it’s not a P-51, those egos can’t handle it. I imagine the ego to cut up a warbird to day is on the verge of crazy when you can get all the attention just keeping it stock and get local news stories of veterans visiting your plane.

As much of a fan I am of Reno, stock warbirds would bring more people. People don’t know, they just want a show.
 

rv6ejguy

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Plenty of near stock and stock warbirds at Reno in Bronze and Silver but few people watch those races compared to the Gold. 350 mph isn't as exciting as 500 and the engine note and Doppler shift isn't nearly as exciting either. People want fast and they want close racing. The best races were were with Strega, Voodoo and Rare Bear. I was fortunate to see the final hammer and tong race between Strega and Voodoo in person. Sadly, end of an era most likely...
 
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