# Stagger 4 engine CAD

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#### WonderousMountain

##### Well-Known Member

Showing epic fail. One side occupies the same space, so I'll have to purchase a pair of matter phase controllers :

The whole thing is oversized, and the valves are too short.

Setback or just an awkward day?

Back to dreaming.

LuPi

#### WonderousMountain

##### Well-Known Member
Eventually got to where it LOOKS like the parts fit right.

Sadly, seem to have gotten to the point where my Cadd skills and load times are not great for progress on visuals.

Narrowed the spark plug options down to a couple Japanese ones, chosen for small packaging; not much extra room up there.

Would like to talk with some people about the dual ignition setup, if anyone has the time.

My goal is to allow one plug to quite working if a part malfunctions. I've drawn up 2 possibilities, a parallel 4 and a double tower 4 module.

Other goals make it more complicated, but trying to avoid the mess of wires is huge.

LuPi

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
If you are going to this extreme of design in the first place, why not go with valves controlled by the ecu and forgo all the gearing? I am sure there is always the reliability issues but then there is potential (desirability) for computer sampling and redundancy built into the ecu and if simplicity is better it doesn't get more simple really. Also all valve timing and lift changes are code related not lets grind another cam related and completely customizable and "limp home" modes can also be programmed.

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#### bmcj

##### Well-Known Member
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If you are going to this extreme of design in the first place, why not go with valves controlled by the ecu and forgo all the gearing?
Somewhere I saw a video (I think it was also linked in this forum) demonstrating a purely electro-mechanical valve system. No cams, no pushrods, just an electrical wire to each valve, and it was shown to be compact, fast-acting, variable (in timing and stroke), and it was said to be retro-fittable. The valve construct was traditional, but the mechanism behind the stem was what was new.

#### ScaleBirdsScott

##### Well-Known Member
Somewhere I saw a video (I think it was also linked in this forum) demonstrating a purely electro-mechanical valve system. No cams, no pushrods, just an electrical wire to each valve, and it was shown to be compact, fast-acting, variable (in timing and stroke), and it was said to be retro-fittable. The valve construct was traditional, but the mechanism behind the stem was what was new.
That reminds me of the Koenigsegg engine. Would that be it?

Having seen the paintball industry slowly convert from purely mechanical-pneumatics to almost everything at the high end being electropneumatic, and the advances possible from such, the idea of e-driven valves makes total sense. One could imagine all manner of sensors and modes where the timing can be varied to match the situation including air temps and fuel flow, and I'm sure some folk are aghast at the very notion of all of it. (Knowing that a sensor fail might shut down the engine mid-flight when mechanically everything checks out is a bummer but the 'limp home' mode sounds good)

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#### WonderousMountain

##### Well-Known Member
Sure,

Why not? I'll give them a call, see if they'll spot me a dozen actuators?

Solves the problem handily.

LuPi

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
That reminds me of the Koenigsegg engine. Would that be it?
One of them, Valeo, is another, but of course all of the auto makers including "the big three" are experimenting with it.

The number of inventions/improvements for internal combustion engines over at at least the next decade and probably far beyond is expected to be significant due to the incorporation of computer technology. It seems that the "ice" really likes the computer so if you ain't for it you better brace yourself.

#### WonderousMountain

##### Well-Known Member
I think we can nip this in the bud,

it's not here at a reasonable price, and I don't have the skills, and "engineering hours" to fabricate the device.

Maybe next production cycle.

LuPi

#### WonderousMountain

##### Well-Known Member
In contemplating why this engine, my projects do not receive the support they deserve, I believe much of the problem is in presentation.
So I will cover what is hoped to be improved over some existing options for piston engines.

1) Liquid cooling conducts better than air, reducing surface temperatures allowing the use of aluminum for light weight and reducing wear.
Liquid can leak, or stop moving through it's channels: My dry deck design (fluid rings) circumvents the failure mode of warped / poor seal of head & block.

2) V4, many 'aircraft' engines are boxer type opposed cylinders, flat engine. The V4 is 3/quarters the width of a flat 4, and smaller still than a 2 cylinder.
This architecture is better for nacelles, or low profile drag types. I've seen some well done flat cowlings, my congratulations to them.

3) Even firing. An even firing engine is not new, but for a V4 it requires one of 2 crankshaft arrangements. The one I chose is 'cross style with throws 90 degrees apart. With a balancer, it will be smoothed.

4) Cats Paw cylinder head, the attempt to create complete dual ignition mandates 2 spark plugs, to get them symmetrically placed, with room for good intake and exhaust areas presented a problem not yet addressed in engine architecture. My solution is still in progress, but appears to offer some squish', 4/3 intake exhaust area, room for traditional valve seats, and dual ignition approach to reliability.

5) Low weight, all aircraft engines must have a reasonable weight, or they are not very useful to gravity defying machines generally. The stable magnesium which took a good amount of research to uncover will shed some weight, in combination with other light metals, composites and no excess part philosophy guarantees even or favorable comparisons.

6) It is difficult to represent this as an advancement, but there is thought put into every selection. Being a 'clean sheet, I am not just looking to say, this will work for the prototype so I can "get funding", but that it works best with what's next to it, before or after, wears slowly and can be replaced, and finally the price of maintenance.

7) I don't know what it will cost. Can't, I think this aspect concerns a lot of people. It's really frustrating to stop and try to explain how I don't know how to tally what hasn't been concluded as of yet. Earlier I wrote I could build one for 10,000 - that's still true, I could finish one engine for $10,000, but that would be a terrible price for a 25hp engine. I'm going to get it out at the best price I can and still meet the goals which have remained from the start. LuPi #### bmcj ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter That reminds me of the Koenigsegg engine. Would that be it? Yep, that's the one. Thanks It's funny that I had forgotten about this post and went searching for it (and found it) on the internet today. #### proppastie ##### Well-Known Member Log Member 7) I don't know what it will cost. Can't, I think this aspect concerns a lot of people. It's really frustrating to stop and try to explain how I don't know how to tally what hasn't been concluded as of yet. Earlier I wrote I could build one for 10,000 - that's still true, I could finish one engine for$10,000, but that would be a terrible price for a 25hp engine. I'm going to get it out at the best price I can and still meet the goals which have remained from the start.

LuPi
You certainly do not think small, this would be a tremendously expensive project in the Corporate world. As I guess any of our projects would be. However if I were paid to make the drawings....you would not even have those done for 10K

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
(1) I like liquid cooling.
(2) V engines are good.
(3) Five main bearings?, Internally balanced or externally, is the weight of the balancer going to be incorporated with the starter ring and/or the crank end of the psru?
(4) What size plugs?
(5) Flown behind a lot of magnesium, engine and accessory cases, bearing failed in compressor section of accessory case once, friction lit off magnesium. What do you mean by stable? I have been wondering about cast titanium do you think it would be a suitable material as well?
(6) It will be an advancement if the ancillary components are modern, ignition, programmable efi.
(7) Around \$150.00 per hp plus or minus 15% ?

#### cheapracer

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
One of them, Valeo, is another, but of course all of the auto makers including "the big three" are experimenting with it.
BMW are the oldest experimenters with electronic valve actuation. They couldn't get it to work and none of the others can and have all but given up - that is relative to longevity in a mass production product.

Its ok for Koeniggeggoisbergsegg to offer borderline hi tech stuff that may fail as the Client will accept that cutting egde stuff may have a failure here and there but it's not ok for Mr Brown in his Ford Mondeo.

Some trucks have had them for years but you are talking 1500 to 2000 rpms with short valve timing and lift, you will not ever see it in an aircraft engine.

#### blane.c

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
BMW are the oldest experimenters with electronic valve actuation. They couldn't get it to work and none of the others can and have all but given up - that is relative to longevity in a mass production product.

Its ok for Koeniggeggoisbergsegg to offer borderline hi tech stuff that may fail as the Client will accept that cutting egde stuff may have a failure here and there but it's not ok for Mr Brown in his Ford Mondeo.

Some trucks have had them for years but you are talking 1500 to 2000 rpms with short valve timing and lift, you will not ever see it in an aircraft engine.
Henry Ford'd engineers told him you could not cast a V-8, put he was insistent and look what happened.

#### cheapracer

##### Well-Known Member
Log Member
Henry Ford'd engineers told him you could not cast a V-8, put he was insistent and look what happened.
Eh? It was literally who DID'NT have a V8 at the start and first quarter of the 20th Century up until's Ford's V8!

A V8 is one of simplicity which and that car's floor-pans were rapidly dropping down is the reason reason Ford chose it for mass production. If the ground clearances had of stayed high with big wheels, Henry's first choice was actually an Opposed Piston 4/8 cylinder.

You might like to review your statement about the V8 being difficult to build after you look at all the experimental engines Henry Ford personally built including an 'X8' (that made limited production) before deciding on the simple side valve V8, partially enforced by other factors as well ..

SIA Flashback – Experimental Ford Engines | Hemmings Daily

You're coming from a position like solenoid operation of valves is new, it is not and BMW put massive effort into it some 20 to 30 years ago and gave up when first valve spring material finally became bulletproof (more recent than most realise) and now VVT systems are well known and also bulletproof - and cheap. It is not something that is being actively followed by manufacturers currently, not to say they don't always test new ideas off and on.

#### Autodidact

##### Well-Known Member
Wow....my favorites are the opposed flat-head four and the 128ci air cooled v12!