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Rockiedog2

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I've wondered about that incident ever since the reports came out. The media may have it right but in my experience likely not. Usually when there's an emergency of the magnitude of this one the Captain takes the plane if he/she wasn't already flying it and directs the FO to run the checklists and radio. First order of business would have been to call for the checklist the Captain wanted while the captain starts the Emergency Descent which the pax/media describe as "the fall". I highly suspect the Captain had the controls from the time the engine blew til he/she shut it down. So the heroic action that the media is blathering so about was her very professional job of talking on the radio (and complying with the Captain's instructions). Most any FO I ever flew with would have been just as calm and professional as she was...the hysterical types got weeded out way back down the line; they rarely make the cut. I can envision the FO being somewhat embarrassed about all the hype(if she actually was the PNF and not the PF) and the Captain just keeping his mouth shut.
Does anybody know for sure if Tammie Jo was the Captain or the FO?

A related aside...the AHC, Discovery, and Smithsonian are supposed to be technically accurate, respected channels. Ridiculous. Most of the aviation related programs they broadcast show the crew as hysterical and emotional as old maids would be in whatever is being "documented". The most emotion I ever heard from any crewmember when something big happened was a quiet "Oh s**t".
Altho not an emergency type situation the worst example I've seen was AHC's portrayal of Robin Olds...some clueless hollywood type's idea of a stud fighter jock. I can't watch it or most any of the aviation programs on those channels
 

Victor Bravo

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Way way way back when the news media still had a scrap of their credibility left unsold, they used to have "aviation experts" that they would bring in during times like this. Experienced airline captains, ex-military people, etc. Barry Schiff was one of them, who at least does have a lot of flying experience (I know he has both supporters and non-supporters in the ranks of airline pilots). Even Clay Lacy did it a couple of times if I remember right. Even though the news directors and producers were paying these people to make the story interesting and edgy, they at least got most of the technical details right, and at least acted as a buffer between what the idiot news people wanted to say and what the truth was.

Maybe we can convince Rockiedog to contract with the news folks and provide a little common sense , technical experience, and southern charm to their aviation stories?

(hiding under the table as I hit "send", with Don Knotts eyes)
 

radfordc

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I've wondered about that incident ever since the reports came out. The media may have it right but in my experience likely not. Usually when there's an emergency of the magnitude of this one the Captain takes the plane if he/she wasn't already flying it and directs the FO to run the checklists and radio. First order of business would have been to call for the checklist the Captain wanted while the captain starts the Emergency Descent which the pax/media describe as "the fall". I highly suspect the Captain had the controls from the time the engine blew til he/she shut it down. So the heroic action that the media is blathering so about was her very professional job of talking on the radio (and complying with the Captain's instructions). Most any FO I ever flew with would have been just as calm and professional as she was...the hysterical types got weeded out way back down the line; they rarely make the cut. I can envision the FO being somewhat embarrassed about all the hype(if she actually was the PNF and not the PF) and the Captain just keeping his mouth shut.
Does anybody know for sure if Tammie Jo was the Captain or the FO?
She was the Captain.

All pilots who land a plane with any sort of problem are considered "heros" by the general public. Most of the public considers flying any sort of plane as taking your life in your hands.

Watch this for the ATC audio: https://youtu.be/cnSizWZVyD4
 

rbrochey

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Our society has sunken to such low levels that it doesn't matter what you say or do, someone will find fault with it... there is no winning, I read awhile ago some woman reporter was upset because "Sully is a hero" but this is a "female pilot" hero, I see nothing wrong with showing that women are hero's too but apparently by pointing out their sex then, well you should be pilloried for making that distinction. I don't know who to blame (other than the go to deviant big corporation sponsors) for the decline in our civil discourse.. maybe the schools get too many snow days for our educational system to function properly.
 

wsimpso1

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http://time.com/5246539/southwest-airlines-tammie-jo-shults-pilot-statement/ quotes the official statement with TJS as captain. So, yeah, we all would expect she would fly the entire remainder of the flight.

One engine out and depressurization - they run that scenario in the sims a bunch don't they? While it would make for a tricky day, I would expect a good outcome.

Sad that they killed one passenger and injured others to fan pieces. I believe that is the second one of those failures (737 and that CFM engine) recently and while it is supposed to be contained, the shrouds were largely gone in both cases. Sounds like some toughening of some pieces is in order...

Billski
 

Jay Kempf

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Sad that they killed one passenger and injured others to fan pieces. I believe that is the second one of those failures (737 and that CFM engine) recently and while it is supposed to be contained, the shrouds were largely gone in both cases. Sounds like some toughening of some pieces is in order... Billski[/QUOTE] We were just talking about the engineering that goes into containment on this and other engines with someone that was on the team of engineers that actually have to figure all this out. This is not supposed to happen, ever, for any reason. Sad that this weird failure took a life. The woman was a Vermont native up through college before moving west. Many around here are a bit stunned. Terrible circumstances all around but it seems like there was a bunch of good stuff that happened at the same time. Happened to be an RN and a bunch of crew and passengers that contained the situation and gave life support. The captain definitely did a great job. When you sit in a window seat comfy and climate controlled you don't think of the life threatening environment inches from you. 500+MPH and brutal cold not to mention the lack of oxygen content. This kinda puts that in perspective. I'll be watching to see what the FAA does about this. I think GE and Pratt are going to have some verification work to do on the containment math and testing. This is a well regulated particular piece of procedural engineering. It was supposed to be fail safe.
 

pictsidhe

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plural heroes
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a person admired for achievements and noble qualities
d : one who shows great courage

She doesn't really fit the 'hero' bill for me. I'm not knocking her performance though, it seems that she did everything right. But it was stuff she's trained for.

Few passengers will know about emergency descents. A PA announcement might help with that.


I noticed that she landed fast. I don't know if that is in the training, but several aircraft have been lost after being taken below their higher than normal stall speed due to damage that the captain was unaware of.
 

radfordc

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I noticed that she landed fast. I don't know if that is in the training, but several aircraft have been lost after being taken below their higher than normal stall speed due to damage that the captain was unaware of.
She chose to land with Flaps 5 because she didn't know for sure what damage the wing LE devices had sustained. Better to land fast than get into a uncontrollable airplane situation.
 

radfordc

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plural heroes
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability
b : an illustrious warrior
c : a person admired for achievements and noble qualities
d : one who shows great courage

She doesn't really fit the 'hero' bill for me. I'm not knocking her performance though, it seems that she did everything right. But it was stuff she's trained for.
I would put her at least into category c....maybe a little d, too.
 

Turd Ferguson

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Wonder why investigators jumped right in looking for metal fatigue?

Because that was the reason for the 2016 fan blade separation. After that incident, CFM and the FAA proposed an AD that called for inspection of all 24 rotating disc in the engine. Some airlines, putting cost before safety as they sometimes do, objected to the AD asking for more lenient compliance schedule and to limit the AD inspection to only a few of the rotating disc, not all 24.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/southwest-challenged-engine-maker-cfm-over-proposed-faa-063342324--sector.html
 

Turd Ferguson

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Yes, but is that 'normal' procedure now?
Absent a specific procedure to fit the scenario that would be a command decision after analyzing all available information but yez, flaps up landings are validated in training.


Let her have her 15 min of fame because it will all be forgotten at the next passenger beating or dog being stuffed in an overhead bin.
 

Lucrum

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http://time.com/5246539/southwest-airlines-tammie-jo-shults-pilot-statement/ quotes the official statement with TJS as captain. So, yeah, we all would expect she would fly the entire remainder of the flight.

One engine out and depressurization - they run that scenario in the sims a bunch don't they? While it would make for a tricky day, I would expect a good outcome...


Billski
Yes though rarely together. In most modern multi engine jets an inflight engine failure isn't even an emergency, it's an abnormal procedure.
Of course in this case parts leaving the plane, vibration, loss of pressure and an injured passenger would certainly make it an emergency.
 

Lucrum

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Wonder why investigators jumped right in looking for metal fatigue?

Because that was the reason for the 2016 fan blade separation. After that incident, CFM and the FAA proposed an AD that called for inspection of all 24 rotating disc in the engine. Some airlines, putting cost before safety as they sometimes do, objected to the AD asking for more lenient compliance schedule and to limit the AD inspection to only a few of the rotating disc, not all 24.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/southwest-challenged-engine-maker-cfm-over-proposed-faa-063342324--sector.html
The FAA frequently accommodates such requests in the airlines favor.

A number of years ago I saw a documentary on the FAA. The two things I remember most. First, the FAA is probably the most poorly run federal agency in the entire federal bureaucracy.
And, at the time at east, they had a formula for determining if making airlines fix a known problem was "worth" the cost. It included a figure of $2,000,000 per estimated loss of lives.
 

Rockiedog2

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She chose to land with Flaps 5 because she didn't know for sure what damage the wing LE devices had sustained. Better to land fast than get into a uncontrollable airplane situation.
can you give us a link to those details radfordc?
a and b don't exist among airline pilots so I's say she got top marks...good for her.
Sully did good too but his was obviously (to most here at HBA) so easy in some ways...no decisions to make about where he was going; he only had one choice. His runway was wide and long, all he had to do was miss the bridges. And ditching is a simple enough manuever. The one thing I wondered about was why did he land so far out in the river...I wasn't there but I've always thought I woulda put the thing not on the bank(or docks or whatever was there) but close to it; ideally step off the wing tip onto the bank...well, something of an exaggeration for illustration. But he was the man and he got it done. Good for him. I appreciated how quiet he was thruout and since and of course the movie was typical Hollywood BS.
Several decades ago south of Seattle in a 727 heading for Vancouver and a sudden heavy vibration and the #2 throttle starting walking forward rattling like hell. Shut it down and diverted into Seattle. Contained compresor blade failure. No fire.
 

TarDevil

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I have several hundred hours in a 737 full motion sim. Not taking anything away from this pilot, but I would rate single engine/depressurization as a relatively easy scenario though I have no idea how the airplane was behaving with a shredded cowling and some fuselage damage. Doesn't take much to upset the handling.

I wasn't in formal training and the engineer and I just kept ratcheting up issues until one or the other crashed. The only time I lost the plane (mechanical related - crashed a few times doing low level aerobatics) was total loss of hydraulics. I managed to get in the pattern using trim and differential power, but couldn't successfully land.

Landing with reduced flaps is is more work than one might think. I've landed zero flaps several occasions, but blew tires every time.
 
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