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Sonerai-esque, side-by-side

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billyvray

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I am sketching up a 3 view for a two seat, side by side seating, steel tube fuselage aircraft. I am on the fence between metal wings or composite wings. Some thoughts, and questions:

1) steel tube mainly for durability, crash protection, and it's really not that slow vs other construction if all the itty bitty tabs are minimized
2) wings - I'm not a big fan of sheet metal construction. I prefer composites for wings and tails. Just an opinion. Likely a Hershey bar or a slight taper. Cantilever, foldable.
3) SBS seating - Nothing beats a single place but getting kids and newbies up I think SBS is better, and roomy when flying solo. And I just don't fancy the look of the Sonerai 2 front seat area.
4) Mission profile - I personally love the Sonerai aircraft. They are a tiny bit hotter than I want. I do love the low wing look but need shorter strip capability, LSA range. Envision a Sonerai with a different airfoil, longer wing, maybe narrower chord (higher aspect ratio).
5) simplicity is key- flat panel canopy (PIK26) like Eaves Skeeter (another inspiration, but maybe a tad fast) - If I can make it look good.

So, I'm working up a sketch for something like a mix between a Sonerai and an Avid, or Kolb Laser. There just aren't any low wing steel tube aircraft I can find. Composite structure (maybe tubing...) wings with fabric cover. Engine - I'm leaning towards the Suzuki car engines or Yamahas with redrives - I know they are more complex than a Vw, but I'm thinking a bit more prop for slower end 2 person capability.



I don't own Sonerai plans but would love to have or see a set- particularly the wing/fuse interaction and folding. I may buy a set if no one has any to share.

I appreciate thoughts on it. Pics added for interest!L-Eaves.jpg Son 02.jpg sonerai  2s single.JPG sonerai 2-1.jpg RCL-1.jpg
 

billyvray

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One of them is, but one tower was knocked down a few years ago.

I like the Atlantis, but it a bit more a of a beast than I'm looking for - thanks though!
 
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TFF

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Stits designed some low wings. You also have the Spezio. Maybe you can scalp some ideas from those. Most planes are bigger than any Sonerai. Stits Playboy is. Although composite wings are fine and dandy, the metric sticking them in a small low wing seems counterintuitive.
 

billyvray

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I hear you, but what I mean by the composite wings is a composite spar (graphite rods, foam shear web), a D tube structure, and foam ribs with cap straps and the whole thing fabric covered.

To expound a bit: I'm thinking something in the speed ranges almost like the 2 seat ultralights (challengers, Kolbs), not Playboys, RV's, Sonex, Sonerais.
More like a Zenith 601 class but different materials.
 

cluttonfred

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Not the right construction method, but you might want to look at the basic Morgan Aeroworks Cheetah design for inspiration. Side-by-side, 544 kg/1199 lb gross weight, aluminum tube-and-gusset fuselage, aluminum D-tube wings, all covered in fabric and powered by an 80 hp Rotax 912 or Jabiru.

http://www.morganaeroworks.com.au/cheetah.html

cheetah5l.png CCB RT 20-12-14 (4).JPG
 

Victor Bravo

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There is a fairly complete Stits Playboy project on the San Diego Craigslist for $2999. You probably couldn't build the airframe for thaat in materials only. It has been lowered from 4999 and has not been bought for months. You might be able to slideint here with two grand in cash and get it.

Did I mention it has an O-290 engine with it?
 

billyvray

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806
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Newnan, GA
A Jodel 11 or 18 and Falconar 11 have been studied a lot.
Nice planes.

I think I’m set on steel tube fuselage though.
 

cluttonfred

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VB mentioned a Stits Playboy project, the SA-3B Playboy was a side-by-side two-seater with steel-tube fuselage and wood wings. What about tracking down a set of plans and using that as a starting point? Even if you developed your own composite wings that would be a lot easier than starting from scratch. Here are the specs I found for the SA-3B, presumably with something like an O-320, so with a lighter engine like a little Suzuki conversion and careful build you should easily make LSA specs.
4488319047_fc618252ea_b.jpg
SA3B Two Place
Crew: two
Length: 17 ft 10 in
Wingspan: 24 ft 2 in
Height: 6 ft 4 in (1.93 m)
Wing area: 108 sq ft
Wing load:
Empty weight: 795 lb
Gross weight: 1450 lb
Baggage: 50 lbs
Fuel capacity: 36 US gallons
Powerplant: 150 hp (? kW)
Takoff: 400ft
Landing: 450ft
Stall: 55 mph
Cruise speed: 135 mph
Maximum speed: 150 mph
VNE: 170
Range:
Service ceiling:
Rate of climb: 1,050 ft/min (5.3 m/s)

Data from: Stits Marketing Poster, Plane & Pilot,
Canada Aviation Museum, AirVenture Museum
 
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poormansairforce

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Just an Ohioan
The Stits is interesting although I would prefer an aluminum wing. Like a Sonerai. I keep looking at them but I would gladly give up 20 mph on the cruise for a slower stall/landing speed.

The Cheetah got my attention! Not tube but still a slick plane that floats. My wife could drive that one.
 

TFF

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I think the San Diego Air and Space museum has the Ray Stits archives. I think you can get copies of the plans from them. They are probably going to be archival format not large format. Should not matter to a builder.
 

poormansairforce

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Just an Ohioan
I'm having trouble finding any pics, info about Stits concerning the cockpit width, layout, controls, etc? A Viking 130 would knock almost 100 lbs off of it.
 

12notes

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There's also the Stits SA-11 Playmate, which had a sideways facing 3rd seat in the cargo hold.
 

103

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Joined
May 2, 2015
Messages
302
Location
Wauwatosa WI
That one is getting a little heavy to meet LSA but it does have folding wings.
I am sketching up a 3 view for a two seat, side by side seating, steel tube fuselage aircraft. I am on the fence between metal wings or composite wings. Some thoughts, and questions:

1) steel tube mainly for durability, crash protection, and it's really not that slow vs other construction if all the itty bitty tabs are minimized
2) wings - I'm not a big fan of sheet metal construction. I prefer composites for wings and tails. Just an opinion. Likely a Hershey bar or a slight taper. Cantilever, foldable.
3) SBS seating - Nothing beats a single place but getting kids and newbies up I think SBS is better, and roomy when flying solo. And I just don't fancy the look of the Sonerai 2 front seat area.
4) Mission profile - I personally love the Sonerai aircraft. They are a tiny bit hotter than I want. I do love the low wing look but need shorter strip capability, LSA range. Envision a Sonerai with a different airfoil, longer wing, maybe narrower chord (higher aspect ratio).
5) simplicity is key- flat panel canopy (PIK26) like Eaves Skeeter (another inspiration, but maybe a tad fast) - If I can make it look good.

So, I'm working up a sketch for something like a mix between a Sonerai and an Avid, or Kolb Laser. There just aren't any low wing steel tube aircraft I can find. Composite structure (maybe tubing...) wings with fabric cover. Engine - I'm leaning towards the Suzuki car engines or Yamahas with redrives - I know they are more complex than a Vw, but I'm thinking a bit more prop for slower end 2 person capability.



I don't own Sonerai plans but would love to have or see a set- particularly the wing/fuse interaction and folding. I may buy a set if no one has any to share.

I appreciate thoughts on it. Pics added for interest!View attachment 84653 View attachment 84654 View attachment 84655 View attachment 84656 View attachment 84657

Take a look at the Cygnet SF2A. http://vikingaircraft.com/why-build-the-cygnet/
It is just asking for someone willing to experiment with the 3 cylinder AM10 engine to build one. Flies 2 up very well on larger VW conversion or the JAB2200 with a 35lbs weight advantage.

Steel tube Check
Stiff Geodetic wing could be converted to composites. Keep the unique airfoil.
SBS good for conversation !
See the bones in the following link.
https://flyalo.com/files/2017/10/October-2017-Tower-Talk.pdf

I always favored a high wing but settled on a shoulder wing compromise. The view is fantastic except for over the shoulder and down. A simple wing dip takes care of that.

Very docile and easy to land/taxi.

I am getting my light sport pilot in NX237F
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=NX237F

The gentlemen Zig Berzins who built my Cygnet built first a Sonerai and replaced it with the Cygnet for lower landing speed and much better viability!

Zigs Sonerai.jpg
Ok nuff said I am bias.

Matt
 
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