Solid Rivet shop head size criteria

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BBerson

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The copper rivets look like another option. Medium hard (23K in AC43.13) I cut a 1/16 copper nicopress in half and made a rivet to test. It worked ok.
 

proppastie

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Here is the specification. AD or 2117 rivet is all I use. Had a couple type A (soft) by mistake could tell right away when I was driving them.
 

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BBerson

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My 3/16" 6053 rivets arrived today. At first I thought they were almost as hard as AD. (cutting with side cutters)
But the test driven rivet almost met the book standard with my rivet gun. The other test 470AD 3/16" rivet shop head is about .020" less diameter and hard with my gun. My gun is a Michigan Pneumatic MP103. Not sure if this gun is a 2X or 3x, they don't seem to rate them as such.
I think these rivets would be superior for homebuilders working with 6061 structure, maybe 2024 also.
Unfortunately, the store doesn't have a large selection of sizes. I suspect the 1/8" rivets should be nice and fun. Should have ordered some because they have a $20 shipping charge. (but the rivets are reasonable in 1000 packs) rivetsonline.com
 
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wktaylor

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All... Recommendation...

I've read thru these posts and noted that Angusnofangus has the wisdom of experience. Listen to him. Riveting is a skill that requires knowledge and practice and an eye for what looks/is correct on installation.

I am concerned about use of NON AVIATION rivets in aircraft structure. IF the rivets do not have rivet alloy/temper code [A, B, AD, D, DD KE/E, M, T, etc] there are NO reliable mechanical or physical properties for the rivets... and the non-aircraft rivets can be sourced from 'anywhere' to 'any quality/consistency standard'. Think about that in relation to your wife/husband/kids/parents/friends. NOTE. since early 1990s[or-so] all fasteners, large enough for the extra marking, MUST have a manufacturer's code-mark on the head [code marking listed in MIL-HDBK-57]. Bogus parts were/are a potentially problem in aviation.

NEVER heat treat aluminum alloy rivets for any reason without training...

There is a very specific protocol to follow... and any miss-step creates a non-airworthy rivet installation by destroying the intended installation strength. Heat treating rivets for ease of installation [in industry known as ‘ice-box rivets’] is very involved and requires precise times @ temperatures, rapid water-quenching, then immediate installation or quick/deep freezing [-40F... hence term ‘ice-box’] to preserve the unstable ‘W’ [post-quench] temper suitable for driving soft... which then naturally/spontaneously/reliably hardens over time [~96-hrs] to –T42 temper. The process is complex [times/temperatures] and handling are critical... a lot of ‘aw-shits’ possible in this process. AND FOR GOD’s SAKE NEVER heat treat rivets to an annealed condition... dead-soft/never-hardening for eternity... this is a airworthiness critical issue.

ALSO, any rivet that would be ‘worth’ heat treating [large AD’s and Ds... and all DDs] rivets has/have corrosion protective finishes. All DDs have gray anodized finish because they have to be heat treated!!. MOST ADs and Ds have an alodine or colored-alodine finish since they can be driven cold 'as-is'... very few have anodized finishes [gray or colored]. Anodized finishes will survive solution heat treatment [~850F]... all alodine finishes will be ‘burned-off’... possibly damaging the rivet surface... and ‘for sure’ leaving the rivets entirely without any corrosion protective finish at all.

NOTE. RE: RV7charlie posted Mar 29 2020...

If you're designing (and you know what you’re doing), you can design for anything you want as long as it's safe. But if you're building a kit, or even building from plans, it's likely very unwise to change the fastening method specified by the designer. Extreme example: the homebuilt that had a wing failure & crashed at OSH a few decades ago. NTSB found that the outer wing attach areas had aluminum rivets instead of the specified bolts. Even replacing rivets with bolts can be problematic in some specific circumstances. Replacing bucked with pulled is almost never wise if the structure is designed for bucked; pulled rivets (even Cherry Max) may have the same clamping force but do not expand to fill the holes. The attached components can then move in shear (same potential issue using bolts to replace rivets).


I went to Oshkosh 1974 with my dad in our T-18 N455DT. While he was ‘hanging-out’ with the T-18 builder/pilots and john Thorp, I decided to ride-hop get exposure to other acft. I got into a T-18... N193N... at the end of a long day... older builder/pilot. Instead of sticks he had control wheels that should have been my clue... but I was 21-and-bullet-proof. After 2-laps around the pattern, too-slow for my comfort for a T-18 [dad was conservative] and a VERY uncoordinated forces in the control wheel [stiff roll, light pitch] told me that this was a scary pilot/airplane. We landed I got out ‘relieved’. The next thing I knew another ‘person’ asked for a ride and he obliged. He was taxiing out, last I saw. Next morning late, on the bus from the college to OSH smoke was rising close to the airfield. On arrival there were rumors of a crash... wing came off a T-18 in the pattern killing the pilot and teenage passenger. Dad was very anxious and tried to get word from John Thorp who was summoned to the wreckage to investigate. He talked with JT... a quite/thoughtful man... who was close to tears that afternoon... but had no answers/causes for anyone. We headed home the next day unsure in we should trust 5DT structurally... after all some stabilators had failed at very high speed... but God knows what went wrong this time. Sure as-hell JT discovered that the builder had modified his aircraft in many unwise ways... including aluminum bolts in the wing-joint fittings instead of using tried/true steel bolts... with NO engineering background. OH YEAH, the stiff roll control feel probably kept the stresses lower for awhile... but the aluminum bolts bent/fractured, none-the-less. OH yeah... the same wing joint on the opposite side wing ‘that didn’t fail’... was close to failure also.

Conclusion: I had the second-to-last flight in an aircraft before structural failure occurred. With a little-extra ‘yank-of-the-wheel’ that afternoon... I could have been the passenger killed... instead of that young girl. I NEVER take fasteners/fastening for granted, ever.
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wktaylor

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Sorry guys... I'm an enginurd...

Readily available material downloadable for free...

AC43.13-1 Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices – Aircraft Inspection and Repair
AC43.13-2 Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices – Aircraft Alterations
AC43-18 Fabrication of Aircraft Parts by Maintenance Personnel
AC43-204 Visual Inspection for Aircraft
FAA-H-8083-30 Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook – General
FAA-H-8083-31 Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook – Airframe, V1 [fasteners] & V2
MIL-STD-403 Preparation For and Installation of Rivets and Screws, Rocket, Missile, and Airframe Structures
MIL-STD-40007 Rivets, Solid, Installation Of
MIL-STD-47187 Nuts, Blind, Press, and Blind Rivet, Installation Of
MS47196 [now NASM47196] Preparation for and Installation of Buck-Type Rivets

VERY USEFUL MIL Manuals
USAF T.O. 1-1A-1 Engineering Handbook Series for Aircraft Repair - General Manual for Structural Repair
USAF T.O. 1-1A-8 Engineering Manual Series - Aircraft and Missile Repair - Structural Hardware
USAF T.O. 1-1A-9 Engineering Series for Aircraft Repair - Aerospace Metals - General Data and Usage Factors
Army TM 1-1500-204-23-10 Aviation Unit Maintenance (AVUM) and Aviation Intermediate Maintenance (AVIM) Manual For General Aircraft Maintenance (Sheet Metal Shop Practices) - VOLUME 10

AN, AND, MIL, MS, (some) NAS specs are available at...
https://www.robins.af.mil/About-Us/Technical-Orders/
https://www.tinker.af.mil/Home/Technical-Orders/
https://quicksearch.dla.mil/qsSearch.aspx
http://everyspec.com/USAF/USAF-Tech-Manuals/
https://discover.dtic.mil/

FAA...
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/

ALLFAST blind rivets
https://trsaero.com/allfastinc/

Cherry Aerospace
http://www.cherryaerospace.com/

Huck Blind Rivets
https://www.howmet.com/global/en/products/product_category.asp?bus_id=1&cg_id=88&cat_id=660

IF YOU can find copies...
AND10387 Drill Sizes and Drilled Hole Tolerances – Twist
NAS907 Drills, High Speed Steel and Cobalt, 1/16 Inch Thru 1/2 Inch
MS20426
MS20470
NAS1097

Pop Quiz...

IF You have a countersunk hole... but no suitable/matching flush head rivet... what is a solution?

For any given rivet gun what is normal/nominal practice for selecting a suitable bucking bar?
 

Angusnofangus

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Sep 29, 2015
Messages
419
Location
Victoria, Canada
Sorry guys... I'm an enginurd...

Readily available material downloadable for free...
A very useful list.
Pop Quiz...

IF You have a countersunk hole... but no suitable/matching flush head rivet... what is a solution?

I don't think I ever encountered that problem. Always had a good supply of rivets. However, one could shoot the rivet so that the tail fills the countersink, assuming you have room on the backside for your rivet gun.

For any given rivet gun what is normal/nominal practice for selecting a suitable bucking bar?

Sometimes one is limited by space, in which case use whatever you can get in with. My favourite bucking bar, before discovering tungsten, was a bar about three inches square, inch thick, with about a 45 degree angle on one side. Good for about 75% of situations. It probably weighs a little a pound. My new favourite is a tungsten bar about 2 1/2 inches square and 3/4 thick with one side angled. Weighs twice as much as the steel bar. Tungsten bars are expensive, but worth every penny, especially if it is your livelihood, As for your question, I have a massive six pound bar that is great when you need to use a 9X gun.
 

Angusnofangus

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Sep 29, 2015
Messages
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Location
Victoria, Canada
The Airframe Handbook seems to recommend heavy bars than most use.

View attachment 95731
I have seen this chart before, and frankly, I think the recommendations are on the heavy side. Firstly, unless you have a wide-open backside, bars of those weights are big and bulky, and secondly, there are going to be lots of places where you just have to use what fits, irregardless of the weight. Just an aside, those big, bulky, bucking bars are easier to drop, and dropped bucking bars often leave a divot if they happen to land on a skin.
 

BBerson

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I use the two pound bar for almost everything if it fits. My four pound bar from Boeing Surplus is huge.
 
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