Discussion in 'Wood Construction' started by MadProfessor8138, Sep 16, 2018.
Doesn't SYP usually have coarse grain anyway, making it unsuitable for aircraft?
Surf around the internet until you find pictures of the various wood you are looking for. Then go to the lumber yard and look at the various types. Check out douglas fir for its straight grain. Stand on the end of the stack of spf and look for a piece where the grain appears to go across the piece.
Trying to find lumber is a pain. Learning to judge it in the store is worse. I "grade" lumber for practice when I am in a store. Familiarity comes with practice. RS Hoover said to buy the spruce grab bag from one of the aircraft suppliers and then compare wood to those pieces.
The stores that I have visited have it tagged either SYP or SPF so they should be separated from each other.
The problem is......nobody I have found in any of the stores can tell me which is spruce,pine or fir.
And.....the tags on the lumber wont let you decifer which spruce,pine or fir that it is.
The people at the stores have no idea how to track what the wood is through their computers.
From what I've read on the internet pertaining to SPF....that spruce isn't really suited for aircraft,the pine isn't white pine and the fir isnt douglass fir.
So how do you tell what you are trying to buy?
I have spent the last 4 days on the phone and driving to different stores and haven't found one single person that knows what they are selling.....
My ex was from Indiana so I am not sure just crossing the river helps......however as regard Aircraft Materials ......switch to aluminum....lot less uncertainty.
Lol....yeah,crossing the bridge helps tremendously,trust me on this one...lol
Sorry,my agrevation is showing and I apologize to everyone,I know everyone is just trying to offer constructive advice.
The agrevation comes from issues like the following example.
As an example,go to Menards website.....now search the lumber for spruce or white pine. Now,whichever you pulled up,go fo the bottom of the page and look at the specs and description. Even though you are trying to buy a white pine board it could be a species of spruce but it doesn't tell you what spruce it is and nobody at the store can track it.
Now,if you try to buy a spruce board and you do the same thing...the spruce board may actually be pine,but it's not white pine.
And once again.....nobody can tell you what it is.
Last example is the white pine they have advertised isnt white pine at all...it is actually some different type of pine that they advertise as white pine.
How can you sell a product that isnt what you advertise?
If I go to buy white pine I want &^%$ white pine not a different species of wood !!!!!
That's good advice plncraze but unfortunately I've ran into a problem with that.
I had the same idea actually.....
Who do you trust to provide the right information?
I've been reading and looking at pics trying to learn the different types of wood and one site lists the pic as spruce and a few sites later the exact same pic will be listed as a piece of white pine.
I even googled several pics and they are the exact same pics listed on different websites as different woods.
Siweks Lumber in MN has clear whit pine and douglas fir with good grain per inch and with a little digging i found long pieces with little to no grain slope. hard to find good stuff at big box stores best i have seen is with wide board 10 12 but good luck finding any length for spar or longeron
When working with wood I've found ................ No one. Well, almost no one.
Unless you buy from a source that specializes in aircraft quality wood then the only reliable way to make a substitution is to educate yourself. I actually like working with wood* but new Spruce from the aircraft sources is just too expensive by the time one considers freight. Add the aggravation of trying to find Anything But Spruce at the local lumber sources explains why I don't build wood airplanes.
*I have a few salvage TG-4 spars and some Bellanca 14-13 wings stored for the day I get around to building something with spruce.
If you dont know what the species looks like, you need to buy samples for comparison. Once you see real aircraft grade, you will really know what you are up against. Specific samples from a suppliers like cabinet shops and wood working stores, clear fir flooring stores, get a couple of feet from ACS. The closest thing I have seen that looks close at a box store is some Hoop Pine that they are calling high quality Pine. I bought some and made into strips. I will build a model form the stuff just to see. My concern is how it glues; the pores seem almost hard wood like. It would probably make wing ribs fine. Coming back from Oshkosh, I stopped at a Menards because they are not local to me. I did not see any stuff different than the junk around here. Store to store it may be different. I did like how they racked it up. The only way I would guess on some unknown wood would be to buy some clear fir flooring. The problem comes to the real problem with buying wood, shipping. Yes the wood from ACS is high, but when it comes down to it the shipping is going to be almost equal to the wood. Penalty for the lengths. Unluckily, you buy any other lower quality long wood and you will still pay the shipping.
When I was shopping for the wooden spars for the JMR, Wicks had the lowest price for the wood but highest for the shipping. Aircraft Spruce had higher prices for the wood but cheaper prices for the shipping. The total bill was a good $100 cheaper at AS. First bought wood back in the mid 1970's from Wicks when it was Wicks Organ when building a KR-2.
I'm a little bit closer to Wicks than you are Pops....a 4 hour drive to go pick up material wouldn't bother me a bit.
It's a shame they decided to stop carrying wood because they had the best prices around.
I'm actually thinking about switching to white pine but haven't had any luck finding a supplier anywhere near us.
Do you have access to white pine?
How's things in your neck of the woods these days?
Hi Kevin, sorry about the "because I said so" answer earlier. Here is a better reason why I like white pine better.
You are correct, AC 43.13-1B does list Northern White Pine as an approved wood for aircraft construction. It's scientific name is pinus strobus which is the same scientific name for Eastern White Pine. In ANC -18, the list of woods on pg 22 are not "approved" woods for aircraft but only lists mechanical and physical properties of woods. The Western White Pine mechanical properties are slightly better than the Northern White Pine properties; Fbp - 5000 and 4600 respectively. Also weight per cu ft is listed at 28 and 25 respectively. So, technically, I guess the strength/wt ratio for Northern IS slightly better than Western at 184 compared to 178 but I'll take the Fbp of 5000 psi over the 4600 psi any day. For reference, Spruce Fbp is listed at 5300 psi @ 28 lbs/cu ft.
Hope this helps. I look forward to talking to you.
No white pine but a friend of mine that is building a Fisher Super Koala by plans found a good supple of White Pine at a large cabinet shop around Akron/Canton , OH area.
I'm doing good, heart still beating and still breathing. Wife got a new hip and now has a bad knee. I have a question-- How many new parts can she get where I can call her a new model ? Maybe go from a 1940 model to maybe a 1990 model. Maybe ?
Local high end molding mill has lots of aircraft grade Yellow Poplar.
Just ordered a copy of this, you may like one too.
Or you could just make your wood sizes 4 percent larger.
Which is the run out in the average cheap saw table.
I've been told that wood of equal weight has approximately equal strength within reason. Like a pound of Balsa wood is probably going to be dimensionally prohibitive in comparison to a pound of Oak.
how much does a pound of feathers weigh?
IIRC, SYP is not recommended for aircraft. Read that somewhere, but can't recall at the moment.
On bowersflybaby.com one of the tech articles has the relationship between weight and strength. I believe it is really specific gravity and strength
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