Single rotor turbo diesel rotary

HomeBuiltAirplanes.com

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes.com:

cheapracer

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
5,990
Location
Australian
I visited a Chinese University yesterday after I saw a brochure for their rotary aero engine in development.



This is a 'Power Train University' where they develop engines for major engine manufacturers, mind you I only saw diesels as I passed by all the dynometer rooms, all were medium sized truck engines , around the 250 to 300hp, inline 6.



The rotary is very real, ECU diesel, turbo apparently running near 3 bar, their own design PSRU that looks not like the one in the brochure, and they were saying 300 hours on the dyno with it now, with a few repairs and modifications along the way apparently.



While the casings were bespoke, with a 'peripheral port' intake (and a bit large also ('apex seals at danger' type large)), you could clearly see the Mazda heritage, and I'm certain the rotor on the disassembled one on the bench was pure stock Mazda OEM, including the stock combustion chambers. I can't say that one had been run as a diesel, I don't know about the rotor in the actual complete running diesel engine.



136 hp, which they were adamant as they corrected me every time I said: "So, 130 plus hp..."



The brochure says 80kgs, but that's just the sigle rotor engine, I figure closer to 110+ kgs/245 lbs including PSRU, mounts and cooling systems (plural, rotarys need good oil cooling) - a litle heavy for the hp, but **** good for a diesel.



They were quite surprised I knew so much about rotarys, including telling them about NSU and Felix Wankel, and that I had worked on NSU, Mazda AND Suzuki! They didn't even know about the Suzuki RE5 .. I didn't bother to mention the Norton ...



So that's about all I know, typical Chinese being ultra secretive and protective of their '20 years behind' tech, you should have seen the excitement when I pulled out my phone to look for a translated word and they thought I was going to take a picture ... lol ...

It's not in production yet, but they say they are ready...

They also had 2,3, and 4 rotor engines pictured, I think there was a 4 rotor onder some blankets in the dyno room.



Verdit, votes, comments, interest ???

rotary diesel 2.jpg rotary diesel 1.jpg
 

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
4,731
Location
US
Thanks, Cheapie, for the report and the chuckle.
Yes, the HP/weight isn't fantastic, but it could certainly be attractive in a place where diesel fuel is common and quality gasoline is hard to find.
But with a two-rotor the HP/weight ratio will get a lot better--they'll be in Lycoming territory. A 260 HP engine like that could have a lot of practical uses in a Cessna 210-like plane, small agricultural planes, etc. The TBO of 2000 might be a bit optimistic unless they've done a lot to iron out any wrinkles, but there's no reason it couldn't do that--and better--once any teething issues are worked out.
 

pictsidhe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
7,376
Location
North Carolina
I visited a Chinese University yesterday after I saw a brochure for their rotary aero engine in development.



This is a 'Power Train University' where they develop engines for major engine manufacturers, mind you I only saw diesels as I passed by all the dynometer rooms, all were medium sized truck engines , around the 250 to 300hp, inline 6.



The rotary is very real, ECU diesel, turbo apparently running near 3 bar, their own design PSRU that looks not like the one in the brochure, and they were saying 300 hours on the dyno with it now, with a few repairs and modifications along the way apparently.



While the casings were bespoke, with a 'peripheral port' intake (and a bit large also ('apex seals at danger' type large)), you could clearly see the Mazda heritage, and I'm certain the rotor on the disassembled one on the bench was pure stock Mazda OEM, including the stock combustion chambers. I can't say that one had been run as a diesel, I don't know about the rotor in the actual complete running diesel engine.



136 hp, which they were adamant as they corrected me every time I said: "So, 130 plus hp..."



The brochure says 80kgs, but that's just the sigle rotor engine, I figure closer to 110+ kgs/245 lbs including PSRU, mounts and cooling systems (plural, rotarys need good oil cooling) - a litle heavy for the hp, but **** good for a diesel.



They were quite surprised I knew so much about rotarys, including telling them about NSU and Felix Wankel, and that I had worked on NSU, Mazda AND Suzuki! They didn't even know about the Suzuki RE5 .. I didn't bother to mention the Norton ...



So that's about all I know, typical Chinese being ultra secretive and protective of their '20 years behind' tech, you should have seen the excitement when I pulled out my phone to look for a translated word and they thought I was going to take a picture ... lol ...

It's not in production yet, but they say they are ready...

They also had 2,3, and 4 rotor engines pictured, I think there was a 4 rotor onder some blankets in the dyno room.



Verdit, votes, comments, interest ???

View attachment 89606 View attachment 89607
Number of cylinders 1
Capacity 0.65
Type Water-cooled, four-stroke, in-cylinder direct injection
Rated power (kW) 100
Rated speed (r/min) rpm 5500
Maximum torque (N-m) 174
Fuel: Jibb Diesel oil, aviation kerosene
Fuel system: erish Electronically controlled high-pressure common rail
Minimum fuel consumption (g/kW-h): 237
Dimensions: confuse Americans 445×700×570
Net weight (kg): more confusion 80
Power to weight ratio (kW/kg): what the hell? 1.25
:Turbocharged
Rotation: counterclockwise (facing the air intake)
Starter motor (kW/V): 2/24

That's most of it. Note the fuel types.

Was this in Chongqing?
 

cheapracer

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
5,990
Location
Australian
Should run it with a prop, not 300 hours on a dyno. To test the PSRU.
I am not aware of what test parameters they have tested under, certainly the engine I looked at had the 'dyno hook up' rig attached to the end of the PRSU, not the crankshaft.


Was this in Chongqing?
One would think that, or up Harbin way, but in fact Terracotta Warriors stand watch over it ...


But with a two-rotor the HP/weight ratio will get a lot better--they'll be in Lycoming territory. A 260 HP engine like that could have a lot of practical uses in a Cessna 210-like plane, .
Well since they only had a CAD drawing of what looks suspiciously like a Mazda 13B dressed up, I didn't bother ...





rotary diesel 3.jpg
 

cheapracer

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
5,990
Location
Australian
I'll add that I have considered for a long time that a much larger capacity (diameter) single rotor engine, direct drive would be a good thing for us, not a Mazda sized or similar offshoots, but one that turns maximum rpm about 3000 and peak hp at around 2600.
 

Dillpickle

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2014
Messages
132
Location
Piny Woods, Tx
I am not aware of what test parameters they have tested under, certainly the engine I looked at had the 'dyno hook up' rig attached to the end of the PRSU, not the crankshaft.



There is a lucrative writing contract awaiting you concerning the assemblage of Christmas toys....
 

Billrsv4

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2016
Messages
129
Location
NW Oregon
C.Racer,
Is the diesel Rotary spark ignition? The rotary has trouble producing high enough compression ratios to have compression ignition. If it is I would have believed they would need a supercharger for starting that way many of the large 2 stroke diesels do. With regards to your other comment it would be very hard to make a effective rotary for light aircraft that turns the e shaft at 3000 rpm. Rotaries thrive on high revs. Now if you can make a design that can effectively take power off the rotor rotation it would already be there. Since I sure you know the rotor TURNS at 1/3 eshaft speed.
T.O. Bill
 

Lendo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2013
Messages
449
Location
Brisbane
Cheapracer, Interesting find. A Germans company is still developing Peripheral Ported Diesel Rotaries 1, 2 and 3 Rotors. I looked into their manufacturing methods and their high quality, but not yet commercially available due to manufacturing funding constraints for commercial output. They were actually in discussions with Mistral with their development, but for some reason Mistral decided to go their own way with parts manufacture. The owner of the German Company has a Doctorate in Engineering and has many years in Aviation oriented Companies.

Many of us looked at a single Rotor Rotary, many hurdles to jump, where as the 2 rotor has the 'Rocking Couple' to assist with balancing, the single doesn't. Using Cast Iron housing in a single isn't conducive to good power to weight ratio and Aluminium housings need special treatment. If their developing the rotor housings, which from your description would suggest they are ( with Peripheral Ports), I would be very suspect of the Chinese manufacturing, not to mention other parts like seals, eccentric shaft, PSRU etc.

For those who didn't know the Mistral Rotary was initially a University Aviation Research development in Europe. There is a wide recognition of the benefits of the motor in Aviation, but requires quality components for longevity, which is always a worry with Chinese products.
George
 

Vigilant1

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
4,731
Location
US
There is a wide recognition of the benefits of the motor in Aviation, but requires quality components for longevity, which is always a worry with Chinese products.
George
It can be a worry, but (IMO) the Chinese companies will meet what the market is asking for--where they find a niche that they can enter profitably. In the past, this has often been at the low end, so they've taken the steps needed to get their costs down to meet what those customers demand. If there's money to be made on a higher margin product, and there's no one already making it, they'll be there, too. The Chinese can make high quality products, but that's not typically where they found the best opportunities in the past.
 
Last edited:

delta

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
2,099
Location
Brookside Utah
The Chinese can make high quality products, but that's not typically where the found the best opportunities in the past.
I bought a set of wrenches in 1968 that were made in India. I still have them and none are worn or broken.
Where there's a will there's a way, and I'll bet if they wanted to ... Besides, we have CR there and I'd fly behind or in anything he sets his mind to...
 

pictsidhe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
7,376
Location
North Carolina
My IBM Thinkpad was made in China. My Samsung phone was made in China. The Chinese are perfectly capable of making top quality items. Having a foreign factory owner is not a requirement for that, they have plenty of very highly skilled people.
 

cheapracer

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
5,990
Location
Australian
C.Racer,
Is the diesel Rotary spark ignition? The rotary has trouble producing high enough compression ratios to have compression ignition. If it is I would have believed they would need a supercharger for starting that way many of the large 2 stroke diesels do. With regards to your other comment it would be very hard to make a effective rotary for light aircraft that turns the e shaft at 3000 rpm. Rotaries thrive on high revs. Now if you can make a design that can effectively take power off the rotor rotation it would already be there. Since I sure you know the rotor TURNS at 1/3 eshaft speed.
T.O. Bill
The larger rotor diameter would be to cause rotor tip speed to be the same, i.e. same signal speed, air velocity etc. Reed valves might also come into play for low speed work.

Porting can be established at any rpm band for a rotary, obviously many want outright performance out of them, so higher speeds are usually aimed at.

Yes, and I don't know, I am also concerned about compression for starting cycle where compression leakage and shadowing, along with heat loss while a rotary takes 1.5 times as long to compress as a piston engine, seem to indicate issues there.

Compression isn't an issue, but an ideal shape of the chamber is the problem to achieve that compression.

.. and yes, one would see a supercharger resolving these issues, not a turbo. There is a one giganatic diesel rotary as tall as a man, that can be found on the net, that uses an integrated smaller rotary as the supercharger.




The Chinese can make high quality products, but that's not typically where they found the best opportunities in the past.
Chinese do make high quality products, you often don't see them because of low price purchasing, high profit margins by the Western businesses that orders them that way.

... or maybe some of you thought HomeDepot, Walmart, etc are Chinese Companies ...

So clearly "they" are not Chinese, but, in your case, Americans.

If I was the Chinese Government, I would put and end to the nonsense, it does, and clearly has seriously tainted anything that is branded "Made In China".
 

cheapracer

Well-Known Member
Log Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
5,990
Location
Australian
Having a foreign factory owner is not a requirement for that, they have plenty of very highly skilled people.
If you have a factory making your stuff and you don't have a representitive on the floor overseeing the production, you will have trouble.

Germans do very well here, go into a Joint Venture German-Sino factory and you will find German Management 'Hands-On' on the factory floor, hence their success.

Many other countries you will find management either not in the country at all, hiding in their offices, or down the Ex-Pats Pub for an afternoon coffee. Guess how their products end up.
 
2
Top