Shoulder wing unpopularity

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by stanislavz, Nov 9, 2019.

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  1. Nov 11, 2019 #61

    Vigilant1

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    I've tried, but I just can't get over the look of the forward swept wings on these things. Irrational, I know. Can't we just make the tail boom a foot longer . . . put the locker for the "must be aboard at all times" tiedown rope/soil anchor back there near the tailfeathers . . .or something?:)
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
  2. Nov 11, 2019 #62

    Vigilant1

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    Because of where the CG is in relation to the wing spar. If the wings are straight, the wing spar would go through the people (or very nearly so). Sweeping them forward puts the center of lift where it needs to be, but gets the spar carryththrough behind the occupants.
    With a high or low wing, the people generally sit over/under the spar.
     
  3. Nov 11, 2019 #63

    Battler Britton

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    it is like (quite!) enter in a Bell 47...
     
  4. Nov 11, 2019 #64

    Battler Britton

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    an other quite perfect shoulder winged aircraft...I love!


    [​IMG]
     
  5. Nov 11, 2019 #65

    Battler Britton

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  6. Nov 11, 2019 #66

    stanislavz

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    Lysander ?
     
  7. Nov 11, 2019 #67

    Lendo

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    A couple of points if I may!
    1. Interference Drag, (between wing and Fuselage) is at it's minimum when the angle is 90 degrees or greater, for a rounder Fuselage, that would be Mid-Wing, for a flat sided Fuselage with Dihedral. it's still going to be less than 90 degrees, hence the use of fillets.

    2. Sweep affects Lift Curve Slope (LCS), as the sweep distorts the shape of the Airfoil that the incoming air sees, the more sweep the greater the effect, either forward or rearward. This makes the Airfoil less effective requiring additional Area, additional weight and additional Parasite Drag. The good news is that for Wings and Horizontal Tails on our Light Aircraft, or Light Sport designs there is not a big effect, but It's still there and shows up more in the Vertical Tails (VT) where some are Heavily Swept. The LCS effect is small when the Sweep is limited to 20 Deg at 25% chord on the VT. This rises exponentially as the sweep increases.
    Ever wonder why The RV has a Vertical Tail?
    Ever wonder why some Tapered wings have a Straight leading edge?

    I evaluated 3 LCS Formula, one from Howe (England) one from Roncz (USA) and one from GAAD Embry Riddle (USA), there were within 1% of each other of the additional area required with there (Sweep, Speed and AR) formula. This was a very interesting exercise as it reinforces the degree of accuracy even when their formula varied, mainly in where the Sweep was measured.

    Hope that turns on a Light for some as it sure did for me.
    George
     
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  8. Nov 12, 2019 #68

    stanislavz

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    Like this, but smaller front wing ? Almost, as Rutan designs with three wings ? Eagle 150B

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Nov 12, 2019 #69

    cheapracer

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    Yes, but not a smaller wing per say, but a fixed smaller wing with no controls other than the ability to trim it in flight.

    A little more like the Peterson 260E, but mid main wing..


    Peterson 260e.jpg
     
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  10. Nov 12, 2019 #70

    cheapracer

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    I din't realise it was a Rutan design, i thought it was Australian. Anyway, they were too expensive and somehow ended up as trainers for the Malaysian Airforce I think.

    That's a Malaysia flag on the VS.


    150b.jpg
     
  11. Nov 12, 2019 #71

    stanislavz

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  12. Nov 12, 2019 #72

    Battler Britton

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    yes...


    but why a front wing.......?...
     
  13. Nov 12, 2019 #73

    stanislavz

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    Yau can skin a cat in many ways :)

    Problems of most common two seater - cg / pilots position / pilot view / pilot safety / stall / how to entry this bloody thing being so old :)

    That small front wing could be even a better option - easy to do, and if not working- just make forward swept wing.. And they could give brilliant stall characteristic too.
     
  14. Nov 12, 2019 #74

    dominique

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  15. Nov 12, 2019 #75

    Vigilant1

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    I thought one of the claimed advantages for these mid-wing planes is better visibility. Now we are talking about putting a wing on the nose. Tell me again how this is better than a high wing where I can mitigate the obstruction with a little bank and a peek before I turn, or a low wing. In both cases the blocked viz is a section of sky/ground that is already abeam my flight path. That seems preferable to blocking the view of where I am going/landing.
     
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  16. Nov 12, 2019 #76

    cheapracer

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    Apparently the stall charcteristics are great, the front wing goes before the rear (of course).

    Because the thread is about mid-wings and we are discussing methods to resolve mid wing issues such as forward sweep.

    Straight mid wing, maybe a little further back, small wing up front to regain the CoL position.
     
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  17. Nov 12, 2019 #77

    Vigilant1

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    Fair enough, but looking at that solution, as executed in Colibri, it seems to me to create as many problems as it solves
     
  18. Nov 12, 2019 #78

    cheapracer

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    Not disagreeing, but I'm still enjoying the think tank anyway ;)
     
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  19. Nov 12, 2019 #79

    Aerowerx

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    You know, you can solve the problem by using a twin boom pusher midwing configuration . The spar can then be just behind the seat for a side-by-side or single, or between the seats for a tandem. Adjust engine position and/or seats to get the CG in the right place.
     
  20. Nov 12, 2019 #80

    stanislavz

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    Lets build and Mosquito in 1/2 scale just :)
     
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