Shoulder wing unpopularity

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by stanislavz, Nov 9, 2019.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Nov 9, 2019 #1

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Lt
    As stated... Why ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmö_MFI-9
    Just an one example, :
    [​IMG]

    Pros - best view - up and below. Strut braced wing is still an option. Easier to get into ? forward swept wing - auto spin recovery ?

    Minuses - forward swept wing - some possible aeroelasticy problems ? Just a step to normal low wing ? Not enough "piperish" look ?


    Another ones : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottier_P.130_Coccinelle
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_SF-2A_Cygnet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARV_Super2
     
  2. Nov 9, 2019 #2

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Lt
    Plus one video.
     
  3. Nov 9, 2019 #3

    mullacharjak

    mullacharjak

    mullacharjak

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Peshawar Pakistan
    Super Mashak or the Mashak(meaning Proficient/Expert) with smaller engine still manufactured by AMF Pakistan at kamra.dont know about the price but certainly wouldnt be cheap.A very nice aircraft. cf63e918b3511405948edb777fddb8aa.jpg
    Should fly very well with the new 4.0L V6 auto engines avaiable these days!
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019 at 6:06 AM
  4. Nov 9, 2019 #4

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Lt
    And it is a licensed copy of saab mfi 15 :)
     
  5. Nov 9, 2019 #5

    mullacharjak

    mullacharjak

    mullacharjak

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Peshawar Pakistan
    SAAB doesnt make this aircraft any more.AMF has sole manufacturing capability to build this aircraft and they build it from scratch.Its a very simple Boxy aircraft.Perfect for homebuilding!

    I have flown in a Mashak and a cessna 150/172. View from the Mashak is simply superb.No comparison to the cessna.
    But Cessna 150 is my favourite because I soloed in one!
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  6. Nov 9, 2019 #6

    gtae07

    gtae07

    gtae07

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,810
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    Location:
    Georgia
    On a (conventional tractor-engine non-canard, at least) light airplane your occupants tend to sit close to the center of gravity (i.e. right around the wing). Typically you get around it by having a carrythrough structure under or between the occupants (for low wing) or having struts and compression members above the occupants (Cessna, Cub, etc). With a shoulder wing, you can't put those things through your occupants (they'd find it a mite uncomfortable) so you have to go around them, and that means either a swept-forward wing with the spar behind the pilot (tricky, adds weight), a spar ahead of the pilot (limits view), or a really massive carrythrough structure going around the whole fuselage (heavy and probably limits view). And then your rear-seaters (if any) have a really poor view regardless.

    TL;DR: It's neat, but presents packaging and structural issues.
     
    stanislavz and cheapracer like this.
  7. Nov 9, 2019 #7

    mullacharjak

    mullacharjak

    mullacharjak

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2010
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Peshawar Pakistan
    What was wrong with the P30/130.A structural issue? The only shoulder wing with wood structure.It can be built as nose wheel also.Would work very well with a vw 1835.
     
  8. Nov 9, 2019 #8

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages:
    5,328
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    Location:
    Australian
    Yup, I considered mid wings but couldn't get my head around the spar options.

    Then there's the stall factor with forward swept wings that pushes the GoG aft, nobody wants that.
     
  9. Nov 9, 2019 #9

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,639
    Likes Received:
    3,269
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    If you a “keep Austin weird” type, it’s perfect. If view is prime, it’s good.
    When it comes to style, it is too Piper. If I’m going to be odd, I’m going all the way. It’s too tame with styling. It may fly great, I’m sure it does, but it does not look natural. Lots of this is psychological of norms but a J3 looks like it’s supposed to, a Bonanza does, P-51 does, 707.
    It’s just in the middle of not being sexy and not being weird. Very few will fall in love.
     
    Victor Bravo and stanislavz like this.
  10. Nov 9, 2019 #10

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Lt
    Thanks for reply. if you are building safety cage - you can mount wing on it too. More austin style

    [​IMG]

    And from geometry point - forward swept wing..
     
  11. Nov 9, 2019 #11

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2016
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Lt
    I think you are messing with nose-up with rear-swept wing.
     
  12. Nov 9, 2019 #12

    ToddK

    ToddK

    ToddK

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2016
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Humble
    As far as home building goes, I suspect that it has more to do with the excruciating geodetic wing construction required by the only plans built shoulder wing: the Cygnet, an otherwise exquisite design.
     
  13. Nov 9, 2019 #13

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2014
    Messages:
    6,078
    Likes Received:
    4,858
    Location:
    KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
    There is one other concern that I didn't see mentioned. Ingress and egress gets far more complicated, and greater sacrifices have to be made. The single biggest thing I didn't like about the Cygnet was the door/windscreen entry/exit. Far less convenient or ocmfortabble than high wing or low wing.

    To be fair, one flight in one Cygnet is all I have for shoulder wing powerplanes. All of my other flights in shoulder wing aircraft offered much easier ingress/egress (gliders) which is not at all relevant to this discussion.
     
    TerryM76 likes this.
  14. Nov 9, 2019 #14

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Turd Ferguson

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    4,797
    Likes Received:
    1,718
    Location:
    Upper midwest in a house
    If you design a Durand Mark V with no bottom wing I'm in. Would look like a Cardinal.
     
  15. Nov 9, 2019 #15

    FritzW

    FritzW

    FritzW

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    3,653
    Likes Received:
    3,265
    Location:
    Las Cruces, NM
    To me they look very easy to get in and out of.

    Borrowed from Mark's post on the "Clever Cygnet Panel" thread.
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Nov 9, 2019 #16

    akwrencher

    akwrencher

    akwrencher

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,104
    Likes Received:
    393
    Location:
    Gustavus, AK
    Looks like getting into a low wing Piper but much easier.
     
  17. Nov 9, 2019 #17

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Victor Bravo

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2014
    Messages:
    6,078
    Likes Received:
    4,858
    Location:
    KWHP, Los Angeles CA, USA
    It took me a little more trepidation than it looks like in that video, but again I only had one flight and never "got used to" gettingi n and out of it.

    Than again i can easily get in and out of the Taylorcraft and many people say that's a PITA. I have a lot of experience getting in and out of the T-craft so it seems simple to me, and somebody else might look at it and say it's for contortionists only.

    So my comment may not have been fair overall..
     
  18. Nov 9, 2019 #18

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages:
    5,328
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    Location:
    Australian
    When a plane stalls, you want the wing roots to stall first, the wing tips to stall last, the tips on a forward swept wing are further forward (duh), hence your CoL moves further foward in relation to the CoG after the roots stall.

    That's the same reason my (straight) wings have 3/8" of twist in them, so the tips stall last.

    There are other issues, but that was the prime reason that scared me off doing one.
     
  19. Nov 9, 2019 #19

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    cheapracer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages:
    5,328
    Likes Received:
    3,580
    Location:
    Australian
    Oh, as my Jamacian Mate would say: "dey ugly mon".
     
  20. Nov 9, 2019 #20

    Winginitt

    Winginitt

    Winginitt

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    47
    Well, its kinda unique. The more you look at it the more things there are to like about it, but it looks kinda complicated to build something like that. Is that stabilator balance wt adjustable? I like the spoilers but wonder about the placement of the flaperons.Top of the instrument panel looks a little high for good forward visibility. What are the flying specs and weight ? How wide are the wings and how much area ? Whats the stall speed ?
     

Share This Page

arrow_white