Scott Ol' Ironsides in Carbon

Discussion in 'Aircraft Design / Aerodynamics / New Technology' started by stanislavz, Dec 3, 2019.

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  1. Dec 3, 2019 #1

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

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    I am and was a Fan of Tailwind. But - can't justify to build it as is. Plus - have some experience with composites, which i would like to use.

    Also - have not found any topic about this great one airplane.

    And absolutely like shape of fuselage for it. For me it is a total harmony. Sadly - plans are not available. Ironically - prototype was build after rc model. And plans for model do still exists. Some are attached.

    Issues - looking for even more info, on how it was build then. And - i do not have any problems in seeing wings / tails / fin from foam solid core covered in carbon/fiberglass. Fuselage - some head scratching.

    So - looking for any more info, not available from web. Especially about construction.

    Do have an article, about fiberglass gear for it. Will send to any one requesting.
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. Dec 3, 2019 #2

    stanislavz

    stanislavz

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    About Fuselage. Will see if i can get any more info on it. Do not think, of it being build using sandwich of any kind. Looks like wooden stringer on corners and flat sheets of fiberglass molded on 4x8 table . Not thing it have to be done in a Sky Pup maner too.
    I do feel good about making it moldless tech on same 4x8 or bigger table. But stringers have to be changed for some uni-carbon fiber or some carbon rods. On flat plates - Mold on table with foam, cut corner using cnc router, and glue together. Still looks like stitch and glue boat building.

    Or - make it big panel way with bevels done in suite on table.

    Waiting for some Tailwind plans, for geometry and for weigh-stimate. But by now, tail section looks like square pyramid, 1x1m base, 3m height, ending in 0 x 0.4 plate. Having an area of 7.2 sqm.

    Guestimation (only panels, standard from Bilski for beiing idiot proof using your airplane as drawing board) 6x2 oz biaxial + some foam + 6x2 oz biaxial - looks like this + some foam. 7.2 * 1.7 looks like in 12 kg ++ region. LAter, will some comparison with aluminum tail on ch701.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Dec 3, 2019 #3

    BJC

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    He simply substituted flat sheets of glass for plywood in traditional ply over truss construction. See brief description here
    https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/...earch-for-black-wood.32681/page-6#post-504682


    BJC
     
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  4. Dec 3, 2019 #4

    stanislavz

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    Thanks ! Yes , i know this way - to change fabrics with thin fiberglass, non structural. The big question is - how to go fully structural. This is about fuselage.

    No ideas on wing, how it was done and calculated for Tailwind from the beginning - is it was stressed skin (it should be, only one strut) or just cover.
     
  5. Dec 3, 2019 #5

    BJC

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    My memory is less than fuzzy on that detail, but I think that the typical Wittman plywood wing skins were replaced with slabs of glass. I know that there were some airplanes in that era that were built that way.

    Do any of you old guys remember the construction details of the Evans Skeeter? https://oklahoman.com/article/3903098/at-93-rita-eaves-maintains-interest-in-aviation


    BJC
     
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  6. Dec 3, 2019 #6

    TFF

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    If built normal, Tailwinds have ply wing skins. The standard is to cover in 1 1/2 oz glass cloth for weather proofing, instead of Dacron or cotton like the originals. I don’t think anyone has replaced the ply with glass. One of the early Tailwinds glassed the wings with some heavy cloth and polyester resin and the wings weighed about double what they should. There are the Calbie Wood version aluminum wings which are mostly a copy of T-18 construction in Tailwind shape. I would work with those if trying to work out those structures. The fuselage is probably going to end up as a heavy box. You will not find free tailwind plans. You have to anti up. There are lots of pictures and where they moved the old yahoo group is the treasure of Tailwind info. That is essentially the depository.
     
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  7. Dec 3, 2019 #7

    crusty old aviator

    crusty old aviator

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    The Dyke Delta is covered with sheets of cured on a flat surface, resin/fiberglass skins, fastened to 4130 C channel ribs.
     
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  8. Dec 3, 2019 #8

    Toobuilder

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    I remember the old Ironsides article. Seems he used glass as a "home made plywood". It was essentially a wood type structure that used glass. If I remember correctly it was a heavy airplane for it's size.

    What benefit are you trying to achieve vs. building a Tailwind to plans?
     
  9. Dec 3, 2019 #9

    stanislavz

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    To prove myself, what i am wrong :)

    On serious thinking - A moldless composite airplanes with Tailwind lines (I really loves it) Used as many CNC "Power" as possible. But not plywood.

    I have another thread, where i was suggested to help build plain composite fuselage - nice and curvy, FK-9 copy-cat. Which i will do in mean-time. But it is just not for my taste. And - from nose point till back of seats,this and what - will be same. On wings - not an idea yet.
     
  10. Dec 3, 2019 #10

    BBerson

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    For flat sides like a Tailwind, a corrugated thin sheet would be the lightest. Like the thin corrugated aluminum sheet in a Ford Trimotor. (.020", I think)
    The drag and looks of corrugations might not appeal, could be smaller corrugations.
     
  11. Dec 3, 2019 #11

    Vigilant1

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    In the case of the Tailwind, I can understand the attraction of looking into flat-formed sandwich panels for the fuselage structure. Whitman's welded-steel tube (including tubes running right across the pilot's field of view) made for a light cabin that that transferred all the loads directly and efficiently. If done in sandwich panels, there would need to be some considerable thickening up of the cabin pillars around the windows/windscreen to transfer those loads, and I don't think the end result will be as light as the original, but 1) I could very well be wrong and 2) weight/efficiency is important, but it isn't everything.

    There is a high-wing cabin composite design with solid-foam-core wings ("The Prospector?"). Plans weren't sold, and I don't recall how the cabin structure was done. It was a one-off and was heavy for its size/class. There have been some posts on it here (even some recent ones), and when the search function returns to the site you can probably look for it for some ideas and "do's/don'ts".
     
  12. Dec 3, 2019 #12

    stanislavz

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    Ok. Will try to make myself clear. Same as in my Pandora thread - Composite shape, over steel tubing safety cage. For safety, and to avoid point loads. But its ends right after pilot seat. I do have problems with description.
     
  13. Dec 3, 2019 #13

    stanislavz

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    Could just build it in Zenair style. But i hate sheet metal :(
     
  14. Dec 3, 2019 #14

    stanislavz

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    Will get banned soon :) Third mini post.

    Not flat due to being easy - i am attracted, due to its low drag and low wing/fuselage interference.
     
  15. Dec 3, 2019 #15

    BBerson

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    I meant you could make corrugated fiberglass on a flat mold. Maybe one side of the skin could be smooth on a flat table, and the backside could have slight corrugations pressed in with a special top mold.
     
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  16. Dec 3, 2019 #16

    Vigilant1

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    Okay, thanks.
     
  17. Dec 3, 2019 #17

    Tiger Tim

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    Seems to me that the cabin structure would be best made in welded steel tube and if you’re doing that already you may as well carry on right to the tail end of it.

    Alternatively you could take a look at the BD-6 fuselage structure which I believe is mostly aluminum and mechanically fastened and if composites are your thing then skin it with thin carbon sheets or whatever. I also wonder if a composite non-sandwich could be made from a sheet foam box with your favourite resin and fibre combination on the outside only, as I believe the M-19(?) is built.
     
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  18. Dec 3, 2019 #18

    stanislavz

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    Got it. How would you run it ? Like Ford parallel to airflow ? Vertical ? Foam is good to make both already. Corrugation - not. You could even used a roof liner with corrugation for ready mold... It is not fine, rather course..

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  19. Dec 3, 2019 #19

    Toobuilder

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    So a structural steel cabin area bolted to a structural monocoque tailcone. Mooneys are similar, as is the T-6 and I believe the Glasstar.
     
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  20. Dec 3, 2019 #20

    stanislavz

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    Exactly. And many more.. As one of mine friend wrote - after designing an fuselage with tubes from engine mount to the tail and calculating a skin for it to hold any abuse (two layers of 7 oz fiberglass in imperial equivalent) - with some formers to help with buckling - it carried all load by itself.

    It is even "more funny" using aluminum - just roll a cone, and add 3 formers. Ugly, but works.
     

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