Scale ME-262

Discussion in 'Warbirds / Warbird Replicas' started by Saville, Oct 5, 2019.

Help Support HomeBuiltAirplanes Forum by donating:

  1. Oct 13, 2019 #81

    Aerowerx

    Aerowerx

    Aerowerx

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5,009
    Likes Received:
    1,362
    Location:
    Marion, Ohio
    Huh?

    Show me a picture of a 757 next to a ME-262.
     
  2. Oct 13, 2019 #82

    Aerowerx

    Aerowerx

    Aerowerx

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5,009
    Likes Received:
    1,362
    Location:
    Marion, Ohio
    I have a book around here somewhere, by a RAF pilot whose job was to fly captured Luftwaffe aircraft back to Farnborough. He said the MTBO on the engines was measured in (single digit) hours. One time him and his partner were to ferry two ME-262. His partner was to take off first, and the plane blew up on the runway. Certainly gave him a warm fuzzy feeling! I don't remember what else he said about it.
     
  3. Oct 13, 2019 #83

    BBerson

    BBerson

    BBerson

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    12,064
    Likes Received:
    2,355
    Location:
    Port Townsend WA
    And almost all jet fighters are not copies of that configuration.
     
  4. Oct 13, 2019 #84

    Deuelly

    Deuelly

    Deuelly

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2012
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    123
    Location:
    Marshall, MN
    In the P-40 and P-51 you sit about eight to ten inches off the floor. Most fighters had the same space because they used a standard sizing in design. I would imagine the ME-262 had similar space. That give you similar space when scaled if you sit the pilot on the wing.

    Brandon
     
  5. Oct 13, 2019 #85

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,580
    Likes Received:
    6,349
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    With the possible exception of the Fokker Dr.I, that has ground visibility similar to a Cassutt, ground visibility of fighters is not worse than a Pitts S-1 or many other homebuilts.
    That is frequently suggested, and may have merit IFF the camera has an adequate field of view, and is used only at taxi speeds. I believe that it would not work well for takeoff and landing.
    Are any WW II fighters too sensitive?

    Thanks,


    BJC
     
  6. Oct 13, 2019 #86

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,873
    Likes Received:
    1,856
    Location:
    North Carolina
    It handled extremely well and was higly manoeuvable. I don't have any links, but it was a fearsome opponent for any fighter when up to speed. It's engines were both it's one of its strongest and weakest points. Terrific speed capability, but they were fragile and power levels could not be altered quickly. It was vulnerable during takeoff and landing phase while at slow speed as the engines could not be powered up quickly. The RAF worked this out pretty quickly and sent Typhoons to jump them in the landing phase. the Luftwaffe responded with flak alleys and covering fw190s which put paid to that plan. The Typhoon was its only real opponent.
    Engine life was usually double digits, if the throttle was handled gently. Owing to a shortage of metals like Chromium and Nickel, very crude alloys were used. The engines were much cheaper to buld than DB601. With the average life of a German fighter at that point, that could have made the Me262 quite an economical option.
    It was probably the best bomber destroyer of the war.
     
  7. Oct 13, 2019 #87

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,873
    Likes Received:
    1,856
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I read one pirep comparing the Spitfire and Hurricane.

    "The view in the Hurricane is much better, you can almost see where you are going"

    The Spitfire has been decribed as "like trying to fly a butterfly". One of it's downsides was that it was a little difficult to keep it pointed at whatever it was shooting at. It flunked the NACA flying qualities tests. It does seem to have walked the controllabilty line, that helped it's superb manoeuverabilty, but it needed a skilled pilot.
     
  8. Oct 13, 2019 #88

    Saville

    Saville

    Saville

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2014
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    12
    Location:
    Boston Ma
    From what I have read the Spitfire controls were not well harmonized. Rudder vs aileron. Ailerons responded with just a thought....rudder required large control pressures.
     
  9. Oct 13, 2019 #89

    nicknack

    nicknack

    nicknack

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    8
    Yes the spitfire has very poor control harmony... the actual control ratio is very far from the ideal 1:2:4 for airleron:rudder:elevator. It does have a very good pre stall buffet.
    Hurricane has instability. The pitch forces decreases with increasing pitch...

    As for the nakajima kikka, it has a slightly over sensitive elevator in the pipreps.
     
  10. Oct 13, 2019 #90

    Deuelly

    Deuelly

    Deuelly

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2012
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    123
    Location:
    Marshall, MN
    There are some documents here.

    http://zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Flying_the_Me-262.html



    Brandon
     
  11. Oct 13, 2019 #91

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,873
    Likes Received:
    1,856
    Location:
    North Carolina
    The Hurricane had slightly negative pitch stability. But it was easier to fly than the early Spitfires with their neutral stability. The Hurricane had higher control forces. One mark of Spitfire, which might have been a V, had its cg too far back after the RAF loaded their equipment in, resulting in some unusually 'interesting' handling. Early WWII German aircraft were a lot more stable, which is one reason that they were not as good at dogfighting with either British fighter.
     
  12. Oct 13, 2019 #92

    nicknack

    nicknack

    nicknack

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    8
    Thanks some remarks in the pilot notes at the site are very useful
    like the statement that the aircraft stalls by falling straight ahead... a very desirable characteristic to avoid stall spin behavior.
    Directional stability is good...
     
  13. Oct 13, 2019 #93

    BJC

    BJC

    BJC

    Well-Known Member HBA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,580
    Likes Received:
    6,349
    Location:
    97FL, Florida, USA
    Remember that pilots back then knew what the rudder pedals are for.


    BJC
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
    Battler Britton and Aerowerx like this.
  14. Oct 13, 2019 #94

    nicknack

    nicknack

    nicknack

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    8
    Primary reason for asking about the measured flying characteristics is because if the original had very good behavior, then it will be easier to make a replica that doesn’t deviate too much from shape/outline and still probably fly very well and suitable for a competent GA/private pilot.
    As an example the embraer Tucano flys great and the 70% replica that is sold by flying legend is easy to handle. Same goes for the P51 form. The spitfire although a beautiful shape doesn’t handle as easily, and the replicas have cartoonish dimensions.
     
  15. Oct 13, 2019 #95

    TFF

    TFF

    TFF

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,649
    Likes Received:
    3,281
    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    A relatively recent pirep on the P-51 vs Spit I read said the P-51 technically flew better but there was something special about the Spit that trumped pure numbers. Much less adverse yaw than the period planes. Effortless to turn. These things are not Extras. They are all weapons of war with very specialized tasks. Who put them in the right place at the right time won. I have also noted that anyone survived war in an aircraft picks that as the best. Many stories have Spit better than hurricane and vice versa. Spit better than P-51 and vice versa. German Vs American or British or Japanese. Flavor of the day. I just met a SDB pilot. His comment was the plane was sure slow. These things all saw aerial combat. There is nuance to that that made certain planes right for that minute.
     
  16. Oct 13, 2019 #96

    nicknack

    nicknack

    nicknack

    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    8
    Not talking purely numbers, but all about ease of flying the aircraft, high maneuverability is not a good requirement for long cross country, nor useful in G.A context or aerobatic aircraft. Rather an aircraft with good static and dynamic stability and capable aerobatic ability will be a good combination.
    Would be nice to get back to the scale me262 discussion rather than digressing on other aircrafts
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  17. Oct 13, 2019 #97

    Hephaestus

    Hephaestus

    Hephaestus

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,185
    Likes Received:
    258
    Location:
    YMM
    I wish I could have introduced you to my grandfather then ;)

    Loved the p40
    Tolerated the aircobra
    Hated the hurricane
    Finished the war in Lysanders.
     
  18. Oct 13, 2019 #98

    Mad MAC

    Mad MAC

    Mad MAC

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    432
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    Hamilton New Zealand
    The P-51 vs Spit thing is always limited by what mark / version of aircraft, if one looks roughly at the year of design you should be comparing P51B to MK IX and P51D to Mk XIV both points make them very different aircraft.

    [QUOTE="TFF, post: 496899, member: 7387"but there was something special about the Spit that trumped pure numbers. [/QUOTE] Pure excess power. For the XIV verse P51D, something like 1000 lbs less weight and 300 hp more.

    There must be quite a bit of proper flight handling assessments of the ME262 somewhere online.
    I have found one, with a short drag break down
    http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me262/RAE-german-jets.pdf
     
  19. Oct 14, 2019 #99

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    pictsidhe

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,873
    Likes Received:
    1,856
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Each individual aircraft had both strengths and weaknesses. This was war, neither side had time for perfection. Good enough to win some fights was good enough for production. Tactics changed according to what was being flown to maximise its effectiveness.
    There was no best plane, but there were a lot of planes that were best at one or two things. A few were very good at many things and praise was piled on.
    The 262 was a specialised plane that was unusually good at some things, such as shooting down heavily defended bombers.
     
  20. Oct 14, 2019 #100

    Speedboat100

    Speedboat100

    Speedboat100

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2018
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    55
    Location:
    Europe
    Willy was prewar a passenger airplane designer.
     

Share This Page



arrow_white