Rigid wood structures in aviation !

Discussion in 'Hangar Flying' started by Speedboat100, Aug 24, 2019.

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  1. Aug 24, 2019 #1

    Speedboat100

    Speedboat100

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    Wright brothers did not start to make these first.

    Many kites and gliders has existed long before them.
     

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  2. Aug 24, 2019 #2

    TFF

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    Of course they did not invent gliders or kites, they perfected. Chanute was a colleague of the Wrights. Lots of correspondence between them. He went to see the Wrights glide and pretty much conceded they knew what they were doing, and exceeded his knowledge. He helped them early on. No invention is lightning strike out of nothing, you have to know something before you invent. Maybe the first ramp or log roller. The Wrights were the first to get it all correct in one neat package that could be reproduced. That is what an invention is. Elements are not a whole package.
     
  3. Aug 24, 2019 #3

    FritzW

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    No one is saying they did. The Wright brothers claim to fame was the first controlled, powered flight not the first glider.
     
  4. Aug 24, 2019 #4

    Aerowerx

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    From Wikipedia:
    (my emphasis)

    And you used a picture of a 1904 Chanute glider to say that the Wrights were not first?o_O
     
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  5. Aug 24, 2019 #5

    Speedboat100

    Speedboat100

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    Keen observation..Wrights tested also their kites as manned gliders. Here a Chanute 1896 glider.
     

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  6. Aug 24, 2019 #6

    Speedboat100

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    Lithuanian glider from 1975.
     

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  7. Aug 25, 2019 #7

    litespeed

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    To throw a large cat amongst the pigeons......

    I present Lawrence Hargraves who developed the box kite and successfully lifted off at what is now Australia's most famous hang gliding spot.

    Wikipedia "of great significance to those pioneers working toward powered flight, Hargrave successfully lifted himself off the ground under a train of four of his box kites at Stanwell Park Beach on 12 November 1894"
    "
    Among many, three of Hargrave's inventions were particularly significant:

    "Hargrave had not confined himself to the problem of constructing a heavier-than-air machine that would fly, for he had given much time to the means of propulsion. In 1889 he invented a rotary engine which appears to have attracted so little notice that its principle had to be discovered over again by the Seguin brothers in 1908. This form of engine was much used in early aviation until it was superseded by later inventions. His development of the rotary engine was frustrated by the weight of materials and quality of machining available at the time, and he was unable to get sufficient power from his engines to build an independent flying machine."

    Hargraves was a man far ahead of his time and reported in scientific and engineering journals of the time. He never considered getting patents as he felt the knowledge should be available to all for the advancement of flight.

    Many can claim they did the most important things for flight but few did as much or shared their knowledge like Hargraves. He is a long forgotten pioneer who deserves much credit for the work others followed to get powered flight into the air.

    We should remember that Hargraves box glider could sustain flight into the wind rather than just run off a hill and glide haphazardly and quickly to the ground.

    It could be said he is the true inventor of human flight.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Hargrave
     
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  8. Aug 25, 2019 #8

    Speedboat100

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    That is very remarkable deed..inspired by the Otto Lilienthal flights.
     
  9. Aug 25, 2019 #9

    Aerowerx

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    The Wright's didn't write the book on early aerodynamics, they read it. And then decided that it was a bunch of ********. So they proceeded to do their own investigating and experimenting. They didn't invent flying but got all the pieces right, and in the right place.
     
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  10. Aug 25, 2019 #10

    Speedboat100

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    Edson Fessenden Gallaudet invented the wing warping. Many things were just invented when the Wrights started doing their machining and testing. Did they invent the wind tunnel ?
     
  11. Aug 25, 2019 #11

    Aerowerx

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    Oh, really?

    From Wikipedia:
    And concerning Gallaudet:
    Gallaudet never patented his idea and, as noted, he went to to work for the Wrights.
     
  12. Aug 25, 2019 #12

    Speedboat100

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    I don't care who patented what...I just say Edson Fessenden Gallaudet invented the wing warping. I remember reading it somewhere. As an ex-Rhode-Islander I may be a bit bias.
     
  13. Aug 25, 2019 #13

    Aerowerx

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    Leonardo Da Vinci, maybe??

    He may not have had the technology to carry out his plans, but he certainly had the right basic idea long before any of the guys mentioned so far!
     
  14. Aug 25, 2019 #14

    Aesquire

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    What the Wright brothers did first was build a man carrying flying machine with 3 axis control, and understood why. Plus wind tunnel experiments that found the existing science was wrong.

    any time someone tells you the science is settled, he is either a fool or a charlatan. In either case it's a lie, and you would be a fool to let that person guide you or take your money.

    The Wrights also built, with help, the best power to weight ratio engine of the day to power their plane.

    First glider? Nope. Lillienthal & Chanute were ahead of them, but neither had 3 axis control. Weight shift gliders. I've flown replicas of Otto, Octave, and Wilber & Orville's gliders. I couldn't say the early ( 1901 ) glider had a better glide ratio than the Chanute late 1890s ones. The later 1902/3 glider had full 3 axis control, although a modern pilot might fry his brain a bit before the different control interface became natural. There's a reason it's not today's standard. Glide was better than Lillienthal and even if better than Chanute's.

    Chanute should get full credit for the Pratt truss biplane (multiplane) design, proper structural understanding, and being a leader in the field. He was a proper and talented engineer.

    Lawrence Hargrave deserves credit for European ( Australian ) invention of the box kite. There may have been much earlier Chinese versions, but my documentation is buried in my unpacked book pile, and he still deserves credit. He's also later than documented Chinese kite train carrying a man up for observation purposes, but there is no evidence I know of that he was aware of them. He might have known, he was a well read guy. But I mean to take nothing away from him. His box kite designs inspired later French airplanes and was influential to many. Especially Bell ( telephone ) who built huge, high drag tetrahedral multicellular man carrying kites.

    I do dispute that his trains glided very much at all. But I did shamelessly steal his designs, with improvement when I built a "Chinese" man carrying kites train for a SCA arts & sciences project. I looked carefully at period illustrations from China, then used modified Hargrave kites because the artists didn't include enough detail for safe structural copies that I'd trust.
    it worked fine. Tethered to a truck, and pretty stable. I gave away the individual kites at the end of the demo in part to prevent anyone from getting hurt trying the train unattended. ( a Paracommander parachute was my modern replacement for a kite train for recreational flight before & after that )

    So in the history of human flight as I knowbit, I credit the Chinese for man carrying kites, Otto Lillienthal for repeatable gliding flights & the "hang glider", and the Wright brothers for repeatable, 3 axis gliders and powered flight.

    The critical word is repeatable. Icarus and others glided from high places or were towed aloft. Once.

    I will give Sir George Cayley credit for a LOT of the basic engineering in aviation. He should not be forgotten. Another multi talented and successful inventor. I'm not sure his lovely machine had many repeat flights, but definitely inspired Jules Verne and Steampunk!
     
  15. Aug 26, 2019 #15

    Dana

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    Just like all the people in Connecticut (where I live) who keep talking about Gustave Whitehead.

    Quite a few people got machines off the ground before the Wrights. But nobody made a sustained, controlled, powered flight, did it again, and documented it. History [rightfully] ignores the people who claim to have "had the same idea years earlier" and never did anything with it, and gives only a footnote to those who almost got it save for some fatal flaw. People credit the Wrights with inventing the airplane. No, they didn't. They invented the controllable airplane. Note that they did not patent the airplane; they patented a method for controlling an airplane.

    Most great inventions aren't just the flash of genius, they're the flash of genius just at the right time when the supporting technology is ready. If the Wrights hadn't had the work of Cayley, Chanute, Lilenthal, etc., to build on, they wouldn't have accomplished what they did. If the Wrights hadn't done it, somebody else certainly would have very soon after, the time was ripe. But they were the first to put all the pieces together, through careful study and engineering, and that's why history recognizes them.
     
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  16. Aug 26, 2019 #16

    Dan Thomas

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    The Wrights did a couple of things others didn't: They built their own IC engine (their machinist did) because they couldn't find an engine light enough to fly. And they realized, correctly, that the propeller was a rotating wing, and treated it as such. The props on the Wright Flyer had an efficiency of about 83%, a figure that still stands out. Part of that success was the large diameter and lower RPM. The Wrights didn't try to adapt ship screw technology like others did; the answer was a high aspect ratio for air propeller blades.

    Another good thing they did, a lesson for today's dreamers: They kept it quiet until they had proven it. They didn't try to make themselves look good or try to raise a lot of money during the development. How many people do we see watching those first flights?

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Aug 26, 2019 #17

    Speedboat100

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    I have that picture as a screen saver.

    Wrights also did not count the hours they spent on their design to perfect it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  18. Aug 26, 2019 #18

    Speedboat100

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    I think that all the control principles were also known before Wrights.

    What decisively departs Wrights from the rest of the wannabees was determination and logical testing...and focusing on the right aspects.

    Ability to manufacture light engine and understanding flight ( lift and drag and CG etc )...was very important.

    Also Chanute, Whitehead and others were well known to Wrights...as was Lilienthal et al ( Cayley, DaVinci ).
     
  19. Aug 26, 2019 #19

    Topaz

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    The development of a proper analytical theory of propellers is probably the Wright's biggest - and most overlooked - contribution to fluid dynamics. Their theory of aircraft control was the other, but that's widely recognized. Prior to their work on propellers, there was no "theory of propellers" at all, and screws for both aircraft attempts and for ships were trial-and-error affairs, guided by the experience of the constructor. There simply was no way of numerically predicting the performance of a given propeller until the Wrights did their work.
     
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  20. Aug 26, 2019 #20

    Speedboat100

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    I think in 1912 his Bullet was the fastest aircraft on planet earth. Definitely the most underrated man in aviation history.
     

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