# Raptor Composite Aircraft

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#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Peter has made some extraordinary claims for the performance of the Raptor. The reality is that his youtube videos show him as someone who doesn't understand the physics involved. He has rebuffed helpful suggestions from a large number of experts. Experts who been there, done that and got really good at it. Thinking that he can do, in his first attempt, things they cannot, yet without being able to do the maths. He just 'knows' .
It is 75% overweight, for crying out loud. Do you know why? Well, Peter himself said that when he specified the empty weight, he did not know how to calculate it... And we are still supposed to believe he has any idea what he is doing?

I have two new people for my ignore list.

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Gently, please. Nothing wrong with "stating the truth", but it doesn't have to be a 2x4 to the skull.

#### narfi

##### Well-Known Member
I am most certainly not a newly created account or anyone other than myself, I am not part of any Raptor media group.
I have already voiced my concerns that this thread is much much too heavily weighted in the destructive criticism instead of *constructive criticism and the cheerful joy over the potential of someone who shares our common interests meeting an untimely demise is a very poor look for this site and its members.

*Just because destructive criticism is by its very nature 'destructive' does not mean that there should not be constructive criticism. I feel a site like this should be known for its constructive criticism when needed and support if deserved.

#### gtae07

##### Well-Known Member
The FAA may not require rescue equipment, but he could ask the local fire department to stand by.
Yep. Most likely he'll have to pay a modest and reasonable sum for it, but it's cheap insurance. Most fire departments have at least a few guys who will jump at the chance to make a bit of extra cash--we used to send our oldest reserve engine and a pair of firefighters to the Friday night dirt track races. The race organizers paid the department a nominal fuel fee, paid the crews a nice cash sum, and fed them.

Same goes for anyone doing a first flight--a little cash and a couple of pizzas can get you a trained and equipped crash crew standing by for your flight. You might need to give them a bit of instruction on your airplane beforehand (how to kill electrical power, how the seat harness works, how to open canopy, where primary structural members are, etc) as our airplanes are a little different from cars. But having them there, geared up and ready to go in seconds might save your bacon...

#### TarDevil

##### Well-Known Member
If I may, another quick note to the new members... and in the kindest tone possible in an internet medium;

Peter is posturing the Raptor in flight regimes where, when failures occur, they are drastic and require the greatest skills for survival. He is baiting uninformed audiences with promises of international capabilities on a beer budget. Have you read all the YouTube comments? From people intent on reaching flight levels, engaging the autopilot then sleeping the duration of an 8 hour flight? Of course, those individuals will be better educated in licensing, but it is a reflection of his market mindset.

Turd Ferguson nailed it... Peter should be approaching this project as high as his projected service ceiling, and the knowledge and quality of work is not that high.

We just don't want anyone killed. The homebuilt aircraft community doesn't deserve it.

#### Rik-

##### Well-Known Member
NOTE: I was typing this at the same time as Topaz was posting his comment just above, so yeah, what Topaz said!

To Rik and Jeff Liot, I have to ask a question of both of you. With two new (or in Jeff’s case, relatively new) members jumping to Peter’s defense at roughly the same time, are you both here as part of a coordinated campaign? In other words, are you both responding to a request or suggestion that people join HBA and comment in support of the Raptor? I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but the timing seem like it might not be coincidental.

I also noted that Rik just joined and his profile shows a birthday of 1-1-01. While that is entirely possible (making Rik only 18), I think it more likely that the date was a quick entry to get through the registration process. I have to admit that given all this, it crossed my mind that Rik might actually be Jeff with a second profile.

Anyway, my second paragraph is neither here nor there, but my first paragraph is a valid question that I hope you will answer. As far as our discussions go, they occasionally take on a less than desirable ton, but our moderators are quick to call people out on them (just as Topaz did a few posts ago) when posts are deemed as less than appropriate. Overall, though, most of the posts in this thread, both positive and negative, are logical and well thought out, and made out of concern for Peter. I agree with TarDevil that there are many posters here that are trying to help and have even offered their suggestions to Peter beyond the scope of HBA.
Please, put down the conspiracy theory. I don't have the slightest idea as to what the hell your implying here.

As for age. It's not any of your concern, nor basis for judgement unless your looking to be biased.

#### flyboy2160

I'll repeat: some of the justified criticism of Peter is because he induced people to invest $2.7 million based on his unsubstantiated claims. That's a different case than some guy just trying to design and to build himself a plane without the requisite knowledge and experience. #### Rik- ##### Well-Known Member First off, welcome to HBA! Secondly, and in answer to your comment, Peter's project is making some extraordinary claims for performance, utility, and efficiency, which do demand extraordinary evidence that the engineering and execution of the project are living up to those claims. We have quite a lot of people here on this forum that constitute an extraordinary breadth and depth of knowledge about aircraft - and especially homebuilt-style aircraft. Some of those people have logged well-reasoned and very legitimate concerns about some things they're seeing on the YouTube videos documenting this project. Some have tried to contact Peter about their concerns, via YouTube comments and, I believe, by more direct means as well. To the best of my knowledge, their concerns and constructive criticisms have all been rebuffed. Given that this is Peter's first "full scale" airplane design, and the level of performance and complexity that he's attempting on that first design, I'll understate and say that I don't think ignoring the proffered constructive criticism and advice he's being given, out-of-hand, is really a wise course of action. By the same token, yes, Peter is at least "trying", and he's trying fully out in public for all the world to see his success, failure, or anything in-between. I do applaud him for that. And, yes, this is "the Internet", so there most-certainly is some "dog-piling" going on in this thread, where it turns into a bit of a feeding frenzy (too many metaphors, Topaz! ) where people repeatedly chime in with far-less-warranted criticisms, personal attacks on Peter and, recently, humorously-intended "wagers" on how badly this will turn out and how badly he'll be hurt. When we get to that point, it's going too far. There are definitely engineering and production concerns with this project, and discussing them is a healthy and educational thing, especially here on HBA. When it starts getting personal and even ugly, that latter stuff needs to stop. As a moderator here, I'm asking everyone to please tone-down that aspect of the discussion. Unfortunately, the reality is that this means little more than his paperwork was in order. A DAR (or even a full-blown FSDO examiner, if they still did that) isn't going to do much more than check your paperwork and give a cursory once-over to the airplane, to make sure you haven't done anything obviously stupid that could get the FAA in public-relations trouble if they give you an airworthiness certificate and the airplane falls on someone's head. An airworthiness certificate pretty much means that you've dotted your "i"'s and crossed your "t"'s, not that your experimental airplane is safe for you to fly. I'm not that familiar with his/their claims, rather I saw the thread and the videos. He's got more balls than most and that's a double edge sword as it gives negative people fuel for their argument, if you want to call it that. I'm not on here to defend him, rather trying to gain a little knowledge but I'd like more knowledge and less negative attitude I guess is the best way to put it. I've seen threads about "why are there no new designs etc..nowadays" and after reading the gang rape on here I'd be scared to say I could do anything as the keyboard cowboy's are quite vicious and often time vicious with fallacies of knowledge. I applaud those that have attempted to reach out to him and give him advice. He can't live in a vacuum, well not for long. It's ultimately up to him to listen, as one way or another he will wish he had given a chance to listen to other's thoughts if there were something to go wrong. #### BJC ##### Well-Known Member HBA Supporter As for age. It's not any of your concern, nor basis for judgement unless your looking to be biased. Welcome to HBA, Ric-. While not totally impossible, it would be a rare 18 year old who has the experience to knowledgeably comment on the design of a totally new aircraft, engine and PSRU, the construction of it, or the ethics of the business practices demonstrated. Please tell us more about yourself. BJC #### Rik- ##### Well-Known Member I'll repeat: some of the justified criticism of Peter is because he induced people to invest$2.7 million based on his unsubstantiated claims. That's a different case than some guy just trying to design and to build himself a plane without the requisite knowledge and experience.
Ok, but (playing devils' advocate here) what's that got to do with you? Are you one of the investors? Then step right up, the Microphone is yours.

Everyone starts from somewhere and Nothing is learned without trying. Your statement is focused on negativity from a point of view of .

A good salesman, going out on a limb here (maybe a thing weak one), but if he's a good salesman then more kudo's to the guy as there's been more great businesses to go down the toilet due to bad businessman-ship than good ones succeed despite the bad businessman-ship.

#### Rik-

##### Well-Known Member
Welcome to HBA, Ric-.

While not totally impossible, it would be a rare 18 year old who has the experience to knowledgeably comment on the design of a totally new aircraft, engine and PSRU, the construction of it, or the ethics of the business practices demonstrated.

BJC
I've never claimed to be 18. I'm just not going to give fuel to a baseless argument. What there requirements are to join an internet group with people hiding their ID behind a false name is no more valid than entering a date that satisfies the requirements to join the same said group.

And to correct you, I'm not here to judge the ethics, the design, nor the choices as there's nothing gone wrong yet. Operative word being yet to join in the negativity of the thread.

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
I'm not that familiar with his/their claims, rather I saw the thread and the videos. He's got more balls than most and that's a double edge sword as it gives negative people fuel for their argument, if you want to call it that. I'm not on here to defend him, rather trying to gain a little knowledge but I'd like more knowledge and less negative attitude I guess is the best way to put it.

I've seen threads about "why are there no new designs etc..nowadays" and after reading the gang rape on here I'd be scared to say I could do anything as the keyboard cowboy's are quite vicious and often time vicious with fallacies of knowledge.

I applaud those that have attempted to reach out to him and give him advice. He can't live in a vacuum, well not for long. It's ultimately up to him to listen, as one way or another he will wish he had given a chance to listen to other's thoughts if there were something to go wrong.
It's a fair criticism. But constructive criticism is every bit as valuable as "cheerleading" in the course of of developing a new project, so we can't all just be puppies and sunshine about this project, or any project, for that matter.

As I said before, this thread contains some posts by very qualified people expressing some very legitimate concerns about Peter's design and how the development of this project is being executed. As both a person working on my own design publicly - see my sig line here - and as a moderator on HBA, I'm fine with that, and I think it serves a vital purpose in helping educate visitors to HBA about some of the aspects of designing an airplane.

Have we not moderated this thread as much as we might, or even ought to have done, and let too much of a "feeding frenzy" develop in the negative comments? Yeah, I think that's probably a fair thing to say, and I hope the discussion we're having about it now will help tone down that kind of participation. If it doesn't, we'll moderate the thread more heavily until it remains inside the bounds of the HBA Code of Conduct. That's only necessary very rarely here on HBA.

HBA Supporter

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Moderator Note: Okay, let's make this a little more official:

Let's everyone calm down a little and stay more on-topic. Drawing conclusions based on age isn't going to solve anything here any better than being quickly defensive to every perceived slight.

The topic here is the Raptor aircraft development project, information you may have about it, your hopes and suggestions, as well as your constructive criticism.

if you have something to say in that topic area, have fun. If you have something to say outside that topic area, don't post it here. That's really pretty simple.

#### Rik-

##### Well-Known Member
Expand the above quote from your profile page to see why we think that you are claiming to be 18.

BJC
If your eyes can see yet your brain cannot comprehend then the problem starts there. Someone posted that information as I can assure your I did not post that. Hence I stand by my statement, I never claimed to be 18 and to clarify, when it comes to payday, the bank most likely doesn't accept BJC as ID on any deposits now do they?

Same relevance. Different scenario.

Must say, it's been one hell of a negative welcome on here. All because people want to defend themselves for being negative when in fact no one was singularly call'd out specifically. They just volunteered to discuss whey they are negative all upon themselves yet I don't think they believe they are being negative.

Makes my original intentions of wanting to learning about a certain home-built plane look futile as I can imagine that if someone doesn't like said plane it has to be ****. But maybe there's still hope on here.

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
Moderator Note: Seriously, folks. Enough.

#### bmcj

##### Well-Known Member
HBA Supporter
Please, put down the conspiracy theory. I don't have the slightest idea as to what the hell your implying here.

As for age. It's not any of your concern, nor basis for judgement unless your looking to be biased.
No conspiracy theory. I did leave it open by pointing out that the birthdate entry might have been a matter of expediency rather than fact. You certainly don’t come across as 18 (aka - inexperienced).

As far as my observation, I did confess up front that it was merely a thought that crossed my mind (we’ve seen it here before), but I never suggested that it was actually true, only possible. I put it out there for you to see and refute if you desired, but Topaz already refuted it nicely.

I meant no disrespect or insinuation in my comment, but I was honestly asking if there was a push from somewhere to ‘defend’ the project here (based on the two similar posts in close proximity. Again, nothing wrong with that if true... everyone has the right to ‘rally their troops’. Actually, ‘defend’ is too strong a word because it insinuates a charge of guilt. We are, for the most part, just discussing things that we see as potential issues, just like we do in most things here... it gives us the opportunity to learn from each other, and it also shows that we are earnestly concerned about Peter’s success and well being.

This is my form of an apology via an explanation of my position. That’s it for me, I need not address or explain this any further as it will add nothing more to this line of discussion (and it’s also driving Topaz crazy ).

Incidentally, I have not seen Peter’s YouTube feeds, so you will find that I have posted very little about Raptor in this thread, save for some generic statements like “if you go out for high speed taxi tests, you need to be prepared for the possibility that the plane may takeoff unintentionally”.

#### Topaz

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Log Member
... (and it’s also driving Topaz crazy )....
Crazy? Now there's a short trip, any time!

#### Rik-

##### Well-Known Member
No conspiracy theory. I did leave it open by pointing out that the birthdate entry might have been a matter of expediency rather than fact. You certainly don’t come across as 18 (aka - inexperienced).

As far as my observation, I did confess up front that it was merely a thought that crossed my mind (we’ve seen it here before), but I never suggested that it was actually true, only possible. I put it out there for you to see and refute if you desired, but Topaz already refuted it nicely.

I meant no disrespect or insinuation in my comment, but I was honestly asking if there was a push from somewhere to ‘defend’ the project here (based on the two similar posts in close proximity. Again, nothing wrong with that if true... everyone has the right to ‘rally their troops’. Actually, ‘defend’ is too strong a word because it insinuates a charge of guilt. We are, for the most part, just discussing things that we see as potential issues, just like we do in most things here... it gives us the opportunity to learn from each other, and it also shows that we are earnestly concerned about Peter’s success and well being.

This is my form of an apology via an explanation of my position. That’s it for me, I need not address or explain this any further as it will add nothing more to this line of discussion (and it’s also driving Topaz crazy ).

Incidentally, I have not seen Peter’s YouTube feeds, so you will find that I have posted very little about Raptor in this thread, save for some generic statements like “if you go out for high speed taxi tests, you need to be prepared for the possibility that the plane may takeoff unintentionally”.
Thanks

#### pictsidhe

##### Well-Known Member
Dagnamit, I forgot to buy popcorn.

Guys, please stop feeding the trolls.