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Raptor Composite Aircraft

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TFF

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I think the real answer is he does not really want help. He wants viewers. He wants to be a hero of sorts. He goes out of his way to avoid advice. When members local to him have learned to avoid, it does not look good.

Sad. There are a lot who would love to help. He could have had an army of volunteers. Unluckily he is mired in a script. One he is starting to look at as overwhelming with a bunch of misspelled words and a story that does not quite work. He is not inventing the wheel in any way, so sticking his neck out so far makes no sense.

He is tenacious. He has a decent wish to fulfill. He has an aircraft. He doesn’t have time to assess issues that should be rethought. His own internal pressure. He has get-home-itis and home is flying this thing.

In actuality this thread has gone quite quiet in the last couple of weeks. He has his viewers viewing and it’s down to the end. He has what he is happy with and all we can do is watch. No need to rehash the problems now, they are well covered. I think he wishes no one was watching now.
 

Deuelly

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Deuelly;
Perhaps you overlooked the fact that there were no competent, experienced aero "engineers" when the Wright Brothers were working to perfect their art.
No, wasn't overlooked, pretty much my point. They didn't have educated individuals to ignore.
Most people on here are trying to keep Peter from killing himself or someone else.

Brandon
 
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Toobuilder

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I like to think of this forum as a psuedo engineering space, as such, it requires realistic "peer review"; not a tussle of the hair and a hearty "go get em, champ!".

Raptor is a product of engineering, not art. How well it performs is based upon how well it's engineered, and no amount of happy thoughts and tenacity is going to change that.

Much of Raptor is flat out wrong, and it would be a disservice to the homebuilt community to pretend otherwise. It is even worse to "encourage" such behavior. There is no doubt some element of mean spirit that exists on this forum, but frankly, this project would never survive this long in a real world engineering environment. Overall Peter has been treated with kid gloves as far as I'm concerned.
 

MaydayMayday

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>I think the real answer is he does not really want help. He wants viewers. He wants to be a hero of sorts. He goes out of his way to avoid advice. When members local to him have learned to avoid, it does not look good.

That is true...I do not live local however I have offered him advice via email and sadly he often scoffs at it...I agree

Still...to view this from his perspective...since his Truman Show is viewed by thousands it would be interesting to see how many emails/posts he receives each day with advice. There has got to be a bunch of good advice given and a lot of noise...

One this is for sure...If I was going down that road I do not think I would have my every successes and failures video taped for the whole world to see and comment on...Of course he was confident that his plan and build would be a good flying aircraft from the very start and that is why he did all of the tooling with expectation that he would begin production immediately after the test flights.
 

wwkiefer

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I code for a living (have done so for decades), and I don't even trust my code.
I also have been coding for decades, I trust my code, the hardware is more susceptible to glitches and spurious input. Looking at the haphazard tangle of wires in that ship worries me. You would think that a machine that is absolutely dependant on Electricity to operate, more care would be given in this area.
 

flywheel1935

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Downham Market, Norfolk, UK.
So who do we blame for the poor PRU Design ????
1598965950789.png
A turbo diesel in a roomy four seat. Design and analysis support for the aircraft was provided. A reduction drive was also designed to convert auto power into propeller power using a constant speed prop.
(This is from CFD Projects website)
 

cblink.007

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Well, even with CFD, you're still "guessing" as to where the AC is - and the guess from CFD may or may not be any more accurate than that from hand/spreadsheet analytical methods, depending upon who did what and how.
Cannot agree any more, Marc. If anything, I have learned that with ANY simulation software, the old rule of "BS in, BS out" always applies. This guy here was used as a case study at TPS some years ago;

 

cblink.007

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I think he wishes no one was watching now
There was some chap by the name of Burt Rutan who once said that a cardinal sin in flight testing is to gather an audience for a first flight. It is never good, as it places a ton of unwanted pressure on the pilot amd crew to perform.

Even in the world of professional flight testing, the only people that are even allowed to be in on any test event are those with a legitimate function and role in the event, period.
 

BBerson

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Raptor doesn't have a crowd or anyone watching the tedious testing. The video chronicles the events afterward.
Boeing does allow a crowd.
 

cblink.007

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Unlike the folks who only seem to function as keyboard commandoes, Peter has the balls, determination, and "stick to it tiveness"rare in today's world
Wow. What a way to insult an entire community here. We are only calling this whole thing out as someone doing a project who is taking little input, and now is potentially endangering his own life and or the lives of others. Most of us here want to see this thing fly, because the consequences otherwise can bring unwanted scrutiny into our community, as if there was not enough already.

To think that PM is the only one willing to try something and display determination is an blasphemous affront to all of us. Many of us are trying new things, bold things, any things, we are just not broadcasting it to the whole world. You accuse us of being keyboard commandoes, but, if my attendance at CalTech, Embry-Riddle, 20 years of military aviation experience, of which included 10 years on the enlisted aviation maintenance side (and have the A&P to show for it among other things), attending OCS, graduating from the US Naval Test Pilot School and being a part of the V-22 Developmental & Operational Test Teams qualify me as a keyboard commando, then so be it.

Go to Valdosta and white knight for PM there, and if things go wrong, let us know what it is like to witness a Class A mishap. I have...and eulogized one of my best friends who was in it. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
 

BoKu

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I have been a HBA member (and mostly silent observer) for nearly one year now...
Actually, as of this morning it appears to be 7 months and 14 days, or 227 days. Roughly 62.2% of one year.

...It troubles me greatly, to see the constant, never ending negative comments...
I can't speak for anyone else here, but I can say that it troubles me no small bit to have to contribute such commentary. But as others have pointed out, Peter has demonstrated himself quite immune from any kind of constructive input. And the results speak for themselves. The airplane he originally estimated would have an empty weight of 1800 lbs actually weighs upwards of 3144 lbs; almost 75% overweight.

A flight test team who evaluated the original control system found that the ailerons could be held at one control stop, and the stick could be wound to the opposite stop on system flex alone. And, yeah, that's been mostly fixed, but it took three or four iterations and still isn't completely addressed.

Mass estimations and mechanical control system design aren't elements of "state of the art, ground breaking technologies." They are simple, prescriptive processes that every aeronautical engineer undergrad should be able to do with reasonable accuracy. They are things that me, a relapsed Liberal Arts dropout, got right the first time I put my hand to them. All I had to do is study the prevailing practice, peek into a few books, make a few mockups, and then cut metal.

...If some of the folks who appear to love to take constant "Pot Shots" at this poor fellow...
Peter is a "poor fellow" only to the degree to which he robs himself and his investors of progress by turning his nose up at the advice he's offered.

--Bob K.
 

wsimpso1

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OK guys, time for a friendly reminder from the Moderators.

We are all allowed to discuss technical stuff, including what we might view poorly, as long as we stay civil and keep the focus on what is wrong with the product. Yes, that means we stay polite with each other while on the public forum, even as we disagree. No, this forum is not the free fire zone than some online forums are.

For those who need more than just "Play Nice", here is the Code of Conduct for remaining active on this forum:

We on this forum are NOT allowed to engage in personal attacks, character assassination, name calling, profanity, and other things. Yes if you would not want your 10 year old niece to see it, it is probably inappropriate.

While I find it disappointing that so many comments are repetitions of previous comments, and much of it seems like "piling on" when a simple "Like" or "+1" would do, we have been allowing it. It sure would be nice if the thread only had new stuff in it, not repeats of stuff already said...

The moderators will delete posts, send warnings, and consider whether or not certain individuals have broken with our code of conduct to the point where they are no longer allowed to post. We do this last thing rarely, but we will do it when needed.

In the past two days we have had folks new to the forum posting on this thread. Some of the posts are well thought out and remain on technical and what they viewed as moral issues. Other posters have broken down to hurling insults and name calling. I have had to delete posts and send warnings, which are short form letter assertions that the post went beyond our rules for our forum.

If you can not stay on topic and be civil, even while disagreeing, please reconsider your post. The moderators will close and/or delete threads that try our patience and take our forum into areas of behaviour that generally violate the Code of Conduct.

Oh, and thanks to those of you who recognized posts that needed the Moderators' attention and reported those posts. Reporting makes it much easier for the moderators to find posts that really have no place in our forum.

Enough said?

Billski
 
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bmcj

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Actually, as of this morning it appears to be 7 months and 14 days, or 227 days. Roughly 62.2% of one year.
Though accurate, one could call this nitpicking. I’m willing to give Jsample the benefit of rounding. ;)

The rest of your post, however, I can completely agree with.

<GENERAL COMMENT>
Concurrently, I can agree with Jsample that sometimes (though not often), some of the critical posts here can be less than constructive.
 
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Jay Kempf

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Hey mods: don't you think this is a little off spec at this point?
So who do we blame for the poor PRU Design ????
View attachment 101240
A turbo diesel in a roomy four seat. Design and analysis support for the aircraft was provided. A reduction drive was also designed to convert auto power into propeller power using a constant speed prop.
(This is from CFD Projects website)

Just watched this video where PM compares the Raptor with the SR22. Yikes. Swept leading edges benefit more even pressure distributions. Badly modeled landing gear, wings, tail, fuselage prove that the SR22 is so turbulent and draggy. Area ruling makes the pressure distribution more even on the Raptor. The runs are measured in minutes not overnight cycles of half a day. And the tag line is it is more environmentally friendly than the Cirrus cause it gets better gas mileage. Good luck with that.

Wings are wings. They have drag related to wetted area and circulation/momentum/Navier-Stokes. Aspect ratio rules. You lose. Fuselages are measured in fineness ratio and frontal area. High fineness wins, you lose. Canards have never proven more or less efficient. Devil is in the details. In the details you have chubby fuselage and bad interference drag and more wetted area and more frontal area, you lose. So on paper without the CFD, you lose. The people that are purporting to have done this CFD study as resume material and designed the PSRU for this craft should take a closer look. Looks like PM did it but it is on their website as a claim...? Huh? Did they actually do some analysis and design work for PM. If so PM isn't mentioning them and they are taking credit for it. Big disconnect there.

Kudos to him for getting lift number out of SW that matched for anything or drag numbers. <facepalm>

SW marketing guys drool over that sort of thing. Synergies of convergence of technologies... Blah, blah, blah....
 

wsimpso1

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It does seem that there is some anger on this thread...
Some folks on here are preparing an airplane design for market and view this as reducing the value of their product in the market. That is personally threatening, and anger is understandable. Other hate it when someone fails to meet the unrealistic expectations because it makes their own love of aviation look worse in the eyes of observers. We are all afraid that this wonderful opportunity to build and fly our own airplanes will be taken away.

While I understand the anger from these sources, on here, we shall remain civil, avoid getting personal, and can get all over the technical topics by rational approaches.

Billski
 

FTEstudent

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Aug 27, 2020
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The people that are purporting to have done this CFD study as resume material and designed the PSRU for this craft should take a closer look. Looks like PM did it but it is on their website as a claim...? Huh? Did they actually do some analysis and design work for PM. If so PM isn't mentioning them and they are taking credit for it. Big disconnect there.
There's nobody saying here that they did CFD for Peter, you must have misread, don't make up false information please.
 

rbarnes

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The people that are purporting to have done this CFD study as resume material and designed the PSRU for this craft should take a closer look. Looks like PM did it but it is on their website as a claim...? Huh? Did they actually do some analysis and design work for PM. If so PM isn't mentioning them and they are taking credit for it. Big disconnect there.
Creative and PM and Jeff have all been clear that all design work was done by PM. The engineers analyzed what was designed, made some recommendations for changes, but also said they were constrained by the original design. Creative is only going to get into the analysis as far as PM wanted to pay them to, and from past examples I would bet that was not very far.

FTEstud: Jay is probably bringing it up because Creative has the Raptor project listed on their "CFD Projects" web page.
 
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