Raptor Composite Aircraft

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ScaleBirdsScott

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And why is there SO much stuff to fix so late into the build of the aircraft ? Did he not get the whole model reviewed before entering the production of the prototype ? Is there no organization you have to go through in America to get your plane approved ?
Of course there's no organized development plan required to build a prototype experimental. To get it registered to fly it has to be looked at still, but even so it doesn't seem like it would be certified by the govt in any eventuality. And, why would anyone in their right mind develop an entire design soup to nuts, before starting on the build? Then there'd be nothing to fix! And have the design looked at by a third party? They might send you back to square one after all that work! Better to get it 90% complete first.
 

cheapracer

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Is there no organization you have to go through in America to get your plane approved ?
Pretty much "no", which is actually a great thing. It's one of the few bastions of self design and self built vehicle left in the world.

It does allow some less than satisfactory items to slip through the cracks though, but I wouldn't have it any other way.
 

Marc Zeitlin

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Someone in the comments apparently said of the aileron link connecting bolt, that there was "too much thread showing" ..
The fix?: Add a thicker washer and use a wider nut, bahahaha! You couldn't write this stuff ... 😂🤣
Not everything that Peter does is wrong - blind squirrel, etc., and there's more than enough to beat him up about without doing so regarding things he gets right.

In this case, he switched from a shear nut to a tension nut. That's perfectly acceptable. He also put standard washers, rather than light washers, under the head of the bolt and the nut. This is an approved methodology, per AC43.13-1B, for ensuring that too many threads are not protruding from the nut - in fact, AC43.13-1B allows up to three washers for this exact purpose. It would also have been appropriate to use a shorter dash # bolt, but there was nothing wrong with what he did with the washers and nut.

And why is there SO much stuff to fix so late into the build of the aircraft?
All first articles of any new design (airplanes, defibrillators, cardiac catheterization systems, Intensive Care Unit monitors, Rockets, Spaceships, take your pick) need lots of modifications and fixes - that's the point of building a prototype - to find the issues that you missed during the design process. With this aircraft, however, there are far MORE than there could have been, had appropriate processes been followed during the design and build.

Did he not get the whole model reviewed before entering the production of the prototype ?
No. Peter had one structural engineer and one aerodynamic engineer. No design reviews with other engineers were performed.

Is there no organization you have to go through in America to get your plane approved ?
Only the FAA from a paperwork standpoint, and to make sure that the thing you're going to fly vaguely resembles an airplane. This is an Experimental R&D aircraft - it's not a Type Certificated aircraft, so has exactly zero engineering requirements from a regulatory standpoint.
 
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BBerson

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I agree with Marc. Excess threads are not a sufficient issue to beat him up over.
The next lower grip length may or may not have worked without being too short.
 

Doggzilla

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Not if you understand who knows their butt from a hot rock and to whom you should listen. Then it's very simple to get accurate information. No one is inventing cold fusion here - the answers are well understood by many.
Actually this is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.

A close friend of a relative is a project manager for a large aerospace company, and the number one major issue is his subordinates arrogance.

Nobody knows everything about aircraft. Nobody. Even the best engineers still work in teams because of this.

Every A&P and homebuilder screaming at him like they’re Kelly Johnson’s ghost infected with Tourette’s doesn’t help a thing.
 

Marc Zeitlin

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Actually this is a perfect example of what I’m talking about.
In what way?

A close friend of a relative is a project manager for a large aerospace company, and the number one major issue is his subordinates arrogance.
And I was a project manager for a large program in a small aerospace company. We had 33 engineers when I got there, and ~133 engineers when I left. There might have been a few who were overly optimistic about their own capabilities, but for the most part, everyone was competent, hard working, and understanding of their own limitations, with an excellent understanding of whom to go to when they had questions or doubts.

After 40 odd years being an engineer and managing engineers, I'll say that anyone who believes that the majority of the engineers working for them are arrogant know-it-alls is either incompetent themselves and unwilling to admit that they don't know everything that their employees know, or else they're extremely lousy at hiring people. There's no third choice. The best thing a manager can do is hire people smarter and more capable than they are, and that's what I always attempted to do, even when hiring kids right out of school.

Nobody knows everything about aircraft. Nobody. Even the best engineers still work in teams because of this.
Again, I can't tell what point you're trying to make here. Are you agreeing with my position, or disagreeing with it, or somewhere in between?

Every A&P and homebuilder screaming at him like they’re Kelly Johnson’s ghost infected with Tourette’s doesn’t help a thing.
The issue is not with the people addressing Peter, however they may be doing it. The issue is that he doesn't know which one of them he should be paying attention to. When Jim Tighe says something to me about aerodynamics, I pay attention, mostly because what he says will make sense and obey the laws of physics. When my mother says something about aerodynamics, not quite so much.
 

BJC

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After 40 odd years being an engineer and managing engineers, I'll say that anyone who believes that the majority of the engineers working for them are arrogant know-it-alls is either incompetent themselves and unwilling to admit that they don't know everything that their employees know, or else they're extremely lousy at hiring people.
Well, Marc, you have at least one year more than I do (I retired early after 39 years of 3,000+ hours per year) but my experience fully supports what you wrote.


BJC
 

cheapracer

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I noticed in the latest video that his retaining bolts and nuts (red arrow) on his aileron activation cross-shafts look to be extremely dangerous.

The clearance from the shaft to the longeron is very minimal, and if the locknuts on the cross-shaft's heim joints come loose and allow those retaining bolts (red arrow) to rotate, they will jam against the edge of the longeron (blue arrow), and simply put, you are going to be in serious trouble.


think.jpg


Next item is the weight of all this wire/tube bunch being unsupported, it won't be long before one of them gets pulled away under bumps and vibrations.

wires.jpg
 
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flywheel1935

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Now here's a thought !!!! why have Landing Lights ???? is he planning on testing at night ?????
The gist of my post was really about all the stuff thats on a 'Prototype' ( The Craptor ) that's diluted the build over time, such as the Air-Con, Pressurized cabin.( despite that he can't be bothered to repair the cracked side window !!!! 'Moving' air intake, fitting all the seats, (and leaving the plastic on), the Landing lights,
and the sidestick mods that seem to get more complicated at every attempt. My money's on the Test Pilots still finding stuff they're not happy with ?? Guessing they also watch his YT channel, maybe with there hands over their eyes, as per any horror movie.
 

pictsidhe

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I noticed in the latest video that his retaining bolts and nuts (red arrow) on his aileron activation cross-shafts look to be extremely dangerous.

The clearance from the shaft to the longeron is very minimal, and if the locknuts on the cross-shaft's heim joints come loose and allow those retaining bolts (red arrow) to rotate, they will jam against the edge of the longeron (blue arrow), and simply put, you are going to be in serious trouble.


View attachment 98997


Next item is the weight of all this wire/tube bunch being unsupported, it won't be long before one of them gets pulled away under bumps and vibrations.

View attachment 98998
Chill out cheapie, I'm sure Peter is fine with that!
Personally, I fix stuff like that, when the boss isn't looking....
 

rbarnes

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The gist of my post was really about all the stuff thats on a 'Prototype' ( The Craptor ) that's diluted the build over time, such as the Air-Con, Pressurized cabin.( despite that he can't be bothered to repair the cracked side window !!!! 'Moving' air intake, fitting all the seats, (and leaving the plastic on), the Landing lights,
and the sidestick mods that seem to get more complicated at every attempt. My money's on the Test Pilots still finding stuff they're not happy with ?? Guessing they also watch his YT channel, maybe with there hands over their eyes, as per any horror movie.
You have to understand the background Peter comes from. In the software development world, you build the complete product with all features. Launch it. Then fix the bugs through patches. He thought he could build a new from the ground up aircraft complete with new engine system and then work through the handful of bugs on the first production units. He then proceeded to build a prototype in the most expensive way possible buying a giant 5 axis CNC to create plugs. He could have built two or three moldless prototype fusalages and wing sets for the cost of that thing alone.
 

BBerson

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You have to understand the background Peter comes from. In the software development world, you build the complete product with all features. Launch it. Then fix the bugs through patches. He thought he could build a new from the ground up aircraft complete with new engine system and then work through the handful of bugs on the first production units. He then proceeded to build a prototype in the most expensive way possible buying a giant 5 axis CNC to create plugs. He could have built two or three moldless prototype fusalages and wing sets for the cost of that thing alone.
Yeah, I think it's more of an Oshkosh show mock up that might just barely fly. Mock ups need all the features.
That's the only explanation I can imagine.
 

MolsonB

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buying a giant 5 axis CNC to create plugs
I have a question. With the CNC plugs, I thought there would be min body work being all machined / digital / autocad, etc.... This is going back years ago when they were doing the body work, been meaning to ask this. How come so much body work afterwards?
 

flywheel1935

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I'm sure were all going off on random stuff while we await the arrival of the test pilots, and the next saga of issues, that no doubt will be discovered. Its like I want to see it fly, but just can't actually see it get through a flight test programme & fear for the safety of the test team. It's just a ton of work to make a 'worse mousetrap' when a Velocity could ??? give potential kit buyers what they think they need. Are the potential buyers really that naive that Peters creation will 'enhance the future of aviation'. I know Preston Tucker had planned to change the future of motoring with the Torpedo, and to be fair I think he did, in a strange way. But the Raptor brings nothing new to the table , just keeps YT dreamers excited as they live their lives through others visions.
 

BJC

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Are the potential buyers really that naive that Peters creation will 'enhance the future of aviation ...... But the Raptor brings nothing new to the table , just keeps YT dreamers excited as they live their lives through others visions.
I think that you answered your own question ...

Meanwhile, the Raptor Team is drafting a press release “Due to the COVID 19 pandemic, the Raptor project has been indefinitely suspended ....”


BJC
 

wsimpso1

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OK Guys, we are on the verge of closing this thread. I just deleted about two dozen posts for being wildly off topic. This thread is too big to let the usual amount of thread drift run. I even deleted one of my posts. Please stay on technical issues of the Raptor in this thread. Please tell jokes in the Hangar Flying area. Oh, no points assigned on these, but do not get me started.
 
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Tiger Tim

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just keeps YT dreamers excited as they live their lives through others visions.
I think an important lesson here (and one that has bankrupted startups in many fields) is the importance of understanding there will be a lot more people saying “I want this to exist” than there will ever be people who will actually spend their own money once the product does exist.
 
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