Raptor Composite Aircraft

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Dana

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ATTENTION: This thread has skirted the edge of acceptability for some time now, and we (the moderators) have mostly let it go on because it's obvious from its 171 pages so far that people are interested in it. However, personal attacks and unsubstantiated allegations about the company's finances are not acceptable here. We try to moderate with a light hand, and we have deleted a number of posts, but there are only three active moderators now and we all have other obligations, and we don't see everything that gets posted.

It would be easier (for us) to just close this thread down, and we have discussed that. Please stick to the technical aspects and news of the Raptor project or this discussion will terminate.
 

BoKu

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...however the transparency of the whole procedure was a great gift and deserves respect...
Here's the issue I take with that: To mix metaphors, the "transparency" you cite is more like a one-way mirror into an echo chamber. This project showed its huge YouTube audience a whole raft of poor to mediocre detail design elements, and normalized them by making that audience think that they were perfectly acceptable. Much if not most of the advice to the contrary was dismissed, shouted down, ridiculed, or outright deleted. Laudatory comments from the well-meaning but generally ill-informed audience was amplified, turning the whole mess into an ego feedback loop.

Is that damaging to the amateur-built aircraft community? To sport aviation in general? I don't know about that. But I do know that there are now thousands of YouTubers who have seen shutoff valves suspended in space, supported by nothing more than rigid aluminum fluid lines, with the implicit message that that's perfectly acceptable. They've seen pulley anchors for primary flight control systems designed and installed with absolutely no care for the line of action of the control.

And, yeah, in a perfect world every fan would watch every video right to the end, and see how every last bit of the design worked out. Or didn't.

This isn't that world.

This is the world where guidance like AC43.13 is written in blood-soaked hindsight. Where practical gains in any of the essential metrics (safety, performance, cost) come mostly at the expense of each other, and only incrementally to all.

My hope is that at least some of those fans will take the project for the cautionary tale that it is likely to have become. I hope they will recognize the good (what there is of it) and understand the bad. I hope they outnumber or at least outbuild those who come away thinking that carbon and CAD are all you need to succeed.

--Bob K.
 
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bmcj

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Actually, except for comments regarding marketing and finances, I think most of the discussion has been technically oriented. most of the recent personal attacks have been sniping comments, not toward Peter, but between HBA members depending on which side of the argument they fall on (kind of like what we see going on in Congress right now).

I agree that we should try to self-limit ourselves to avoid personal statements (about Peter or each other), but I can forgive the use of guesses and estimates by members because sometimes it’s easier to ballpark off the top of your head than to research info that may or may not be readily available. At least a guess can be refuted and corrected if someone sees the need for it.

BTW... “ballpark off the top of your head” was not meant as a bald joke. :beer:
 

Topaz

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...most of the recent personal attacks have been sniping comments, not toward Peter, but between HBA members depending on which side of the argument they fall on ...
Which is, itself, something we don't allow here and is absolutely against the spirit of HBA. This thread has been the biggest subject of violation reports and moderator warnings of any HBA thread in years. We've shut it down temporarily as a warning once already. We've let you guys bend the rules and the spirit of HBA to the limit because you are all so obviously very, very interested in the topic, and because none of us likes jumping in and having to play referee. You all are our friends.

But let me provide a not-so-subtle reiteration of Dana's message above, which all the moderators wholeheartedly support: This thread needs to start staying within the rules and spirit of HBA - and remain that way - or it's done.

The choice on how this goes is up to you guys.
 

Marc Zeitlin

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Will Peter announce planned dates for the first several flights?
I have no insight into plans for publicizing any future flights.
(I would not.)
And everyone knowledgable always tells folks planning a first/second/subsequent flight of a new aircraft, whether a new design or a well proven one, to make NO claims about schedule, timing, or content of any early flight testing. There's more than enough pressure on all involved without that.
 

BJC

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And everyone knowledgable always tells folks planning a first/second/subsequent flight of a new aircraft, whether a new design or a well proven one, to make NO claims about schedule, timing, or content of any early flight testing. There's more than enough pressure on all involved without that.
Yup, that is why I said that I would not. But neither would I post videos featuring me on You Tube.


BJC
 

donjohnston

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Ask Velocity how many TXL kits they sell per year - if it's more than 5, I'll eat a shoe - the FAA database only shows ONE TXL on the registry (I'm sure there are more under different names, but the point stands).
FYI, there is no TXL kit. In the XL line, the only difference is XL-RG or XL-FG. It's up to the builder to pick their engine. Velocity does sell "Engine Install Kits". But there's virtually no difference between the TSIO550 and IO550 kits for the Continental.

At present, there are about a dozen turbo-charged, 6 cylinder Velocity's flying.

-Don
 

BBerson

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I imagine the next step is just a crop hop, since the test pilot seemed happy with the acceleration and braking.
I wouldn't announce any test or crow hop. But a video afterward I would expect. (much like the Quickie jet crash)
 

Tiger Tim

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But a video afterward I would expect. (much like the Quickie jet crash)
The Quickie crash I suspect was only posted because it had a lesson and was a spectacle. On the other hand, the Raptor getting an inch off the pavement should get a heck of a cheer from the fan club.
 

TarDevil

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I imagine the next step is just a crop hop, since the test pilot seemed happy with the acceleration and braking.
I wouldn't announce any test or crow hop. But a video afterward I would expect. (much like the Quickie jet crash)
I just don't think there's nearly enough runway for crow hops. Once airborne, that thing will need to go around.
 
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Doggzilla

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Sorry, I guess I don't see your point.
I think he was saying the Quickie crash was different because it was not something the pilot could have predicted reasonably. It was not a design fault but an unexpected limitation on the performance envelope. Crosswinds on landing stalled the downwind turbine. Not something most people would have expected.

A failure of the Raptor construction would be a different category of failure because it was more obvious and predictable.
 

BBerson

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He has a camera on his helmet. I think there will be a video of whatever happens just like every other video the past four years. And I will learn something.
 

pictsidhe

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Barnaby Wainfain has said that one of his creations (I forget which), will fly on Tuesday. Though he has not specified which Tuesday... I think that this a good approach, though Thursday would be a better choice.

My project does not have a schedule, budget or price. That means that I cannot miss them! While I secretly (oops!) hope to sell a billion cheap kits with unheard of performance, reality has smacked me in the face with a shovel way too many times for me to give projected numbers out... I can say that I am doing my damndest to make it 103 compliant and not a deathtrap.
 
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Venom

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ATTENTION: This thread has skirted the edge of acceptability for some time now, and we (the moderators) have mostly let it go on because it's obvious from its 171 pages so far that people are interested in it. However, personal attacks and unsubstantiated allegations about the company's finances are not acceptable here. We try to moderate with a light hand, and we have deleted a number of posts, but there are only three active moderators now and we all have other obligations, and we don't see everything that gets posted.

It would be easier (for us) to just close this thread down, and we have discussed that. Please stick to the technical aspects and news of the Raptor project or this discussion will terminate.
 

Marc Zeitlin

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FYI, there is no TXL kit.
They've got it listed on their website:

http://www.velocityaircraft.com/airplane-models-txl.html

But if they don't actually sell them, then the answer is zero, and that only supports my argument about the size of the market even more.

At present, there are about a dozen turbo-charged, 6 cylinder Velocity's flying.
Which gives another data point in the argument for this being a tiny market, unless one argues that the right airplane that the huge demand has been waiting for just hasn't existed until now.
 
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